7 ms·

Changes in schizophrenia diagnoses associated with cannabis use disorder

72 points by Cyclone_ 2y ago

LoganDark 2y ago
I've tried cannabis a few times but I couldn't get it to do nearly anything at all. I've tried a few different kinds and also tried THC tincture, but could never get anything to happen other than some slight dissociation. Is that "stoned"? Is my brain just not receptive to it or something?
- djkoolaide 2y ago
  People have this strange concept that weed is supposed to make you see rainbows and stuff lol. I'd say your experience is about normal.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    I've never heard about rainbows and stuff, at least not for weed. I've heard for some people it increases their depth perception to potentially painful levels, I've heard for some people it makes them feel like they can see with their eyes closed, I've heard for some people it makes daydreams more vivid/accessible, I've heard for some people it makes things feel/appear funnier than they actually are... but for me it's just some slight dissociation, which doesn't exactly manifest as a particularly interesting or impaired experience since I experience dissociation all the time just naturally (thanks to my dissociative disorder).
  - guelo 2y ago
    No that is not normal. Normal is noticing within a mini or two that your mind is significantly altered.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      In my experience a lot of people are not great at telling when their mind is altered. Myself included at times.
- ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    (I replied to an earlier version of the parent whose text I don't have in my browser cache, oops.) Ah but you see, I don't even identify as a member of that species at all :) (I am used to people telling me essentially boo hoo.) > I mean, whats the worse that can happen? You might develop schizophrenia? I'd like the opportunity to try it at least. Along with like... most things. Even/especially the stuff that is most stereotyped.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- iammrpayments 2y ago
  It just made me feel 0 anxiety, but I thought the experience was not good enough to justify breaking the law
  - codr7 2y ago
    The law is broken, you couldn't break it more if you tried.
- portaouflop 2y ago
  Every human brain is different, some smoke a lot of pot and develop serious mental issues— others smoke a ton for years and you don’t notice any change. The problem imo with this kinds of studies is that people can’t take the nuance and rather see it as “weed = bad” or some other binary outcome. Imo all drugs have a potential to be dangerous — all adults should have free agency what they do with their bodies. Sure cannabis, alcohol or mushrooms are dangerous, but I would argue a society that makes their use completely illegal without nuance is not a free society
  - pea 2y ago
    It's very interesting. I am extremely sensitive to THC, in a way I am not to any other drugs. A small amount (5mg) gives me full on disassociation/derealization, very anxious thoughts, etc. I always wondered if other people had the same experience of THC as I did, but responded _psychologically_ differently to me, or if it was a _physiologically_ different experience. It was very confusing during high school. Bizarrely I've found this react to weed much more common in the UK than California. There would be no reason for that to be true, though.
    - ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y ago
      > A small amount (5mg) gives me full on disassociation/derealization, very anxious thoughts, etc It is pretty common for people to have panic attacks while using cannabis. Those can be the symptoms of a panic attack. > There would be no reason for that to be true, though. Concentration, cannabinoid composition, adulteration (analogues, enhancement, etc), contamination (heavy metals, pesticides, mold, environmental or biotic toxins) are a few things that come to mind.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      > I always wondered if other people had the same experience of THC as I did, but responded _psychologically_ differently to me, or if it was a _physiologically_ different experience. It was very confusing during high school. I wonder this too. Maybe, say, non-autistic people would interpret differently what I see as mild dissociation, and experience all of the... whatever the fuck THC is supposed to do to Normal People. Or so the theory goes.
- bongodongobob 2y ago
  This sounds snarky but you just didn't do enough.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    I'm not sure how to do more. I think in all cases I tried to take as much as I could. I basically can't smoke or vape it because every time I try, I feel like I'm going to choke and die, and I cough for something like 5 minutes straight. When I tried the tincture, I took 50mg of THC orally. (250mg per 30oz, so 6oz.) Although I guess I could just be unable to take THC orally, which would suck, because smoking it is miserable. (I am really not a smoker...)
    - bongodongobob 2y ago
      Yeah, edibles don't do much for me either. Hit a vape pen.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        I have one. Makes me feel like my lungs are about to explode and I can't breathe for like 5 minutes after. I hate it.
- Havoc 2y ago
  Sounds like a dosage situation. A lot of the tincture stuff just isn’t all that strong. Effect wise - I mostly notice it in sensation of time. Two hours feels like four. And it’s not smooth flow of time - almost skips occasionally.
- csomar 2y ago
  Your brain is not receptive. This could be a worse, however. If you have schizophrenia within the family, you might be at risk. The doctor strongly recommended I do not take any cannabis because there is a risk it triggers a psychosis episode. I wouldn’t see cannabis having no effect as good news as that’s not representative of the average experience.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    I've been trying to cause a psychotic episode for years and so far have not yet succeeded :) I think the sticking point for me is that I refuse to knowingly cause myself permanent brain damage. That heavily limits my options.
    - csomar 2y ago
      Triggering a psychotic episode is a very dangerous thing as it can turn into permanent psychosis. That's one of the dangers of cannabis and LSD.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        Sometimes I still wonder if that would even be such a bad thing. But maybe I'm not fit to make that determination lol
- Perenti 2y ago
  I knew a few people when I was young (20s) that "pot does nothing" to them. Then one day they took a toke from a joint going round and were totally munged. I've seen it a few times, and I have no idea why it's like that for some people.
- rufus_foreman 2y ago
  That was my experience also. I would smoke with my stoner friends, and it didn't seem to do much. I would think maybe I wasn't inhaling enough or something but then I would look in the mirror and my eyes were blood red. I think it's just an expectations thing. I was doing max doses of acid for a long time before I ever used marijuana, and that ain't "some slight dissociation". On acid, you would watch the houses across the street stand up, join hands, and dance around in circles. Pot just didn't move the needle.
ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y ago
Maybe an increase in misdiagnosis?
- 42772827 2y ago
  Could also just be an increase in symptoms the person already had but in minor form. We tend to think of people as being either schizophrenic or... "not," but it seems far more likely that it exists, like everything in humans, on a spectrum.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    Ah yes, the autism vs schizophrenia spectrum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHuFSnhKG9I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHuFSnhKG9I I don't think pretty much any of that video is reliably supported but oh boy is it food for thought.
  - baking 2y ago
    People develop schizophrenia in their early twenties. Once it develops, you have it for life. The evidence is that cannabis use at an early age makes people who are susceptible to schizophrenia unable to control it and it fucks up the rest of their life. Some people smoke a ton of pot and never develop schizophrenia. Some people who are susceptible to schizophrenia and wait until their late 20's to smoke pot or use it minimally before then are able to avoid schizophrenia. This is a perfectly valid reason to avoid heavy cannabis use before the age of 25.
- throw18376 2y ago
  it's pretty hard to establish causality for something like this, but you have: 1) very solid evidence of correlation at a population level 2) a lot of clinical experience from doctors that patients with psychotic disorder diagnoses who use cannabis tend to do worse. and, similar stories from family members of people with psychotic symptoms who aren't in treatment. so unfortunately I think there is something real here, it's not just people having transient bad reactions to weed and going to the ER and getting a diagnosis.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
xyst 2y ago
Explains the downfall of Elmo [1]. Bro hasn’t been the same since that fateful day on JRE. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45445554 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45445554
- inverted_flag 2y ago
  This may be a joke, but with the ultra-potent weed available nowadays, one time is really all it takes to cause serious psychological changes.
  - highasfcuk 2y ago
    "ultra-potent weed" is weak and you need to stop with that talking point. SWIM are on 90%+ THC cartridges or concentrates 24/7. Smoking the strongest weed, low 30%s, is a tolerance break thing or for fun.
    - inverted_flag 2y ago
      THC% has skyrocketed over the last 20 years, that’s well documented. I know from experience that one time is all it takes to mess you up.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        A lot of things can mess you up after only one time. For example, I got hit by a truck in July of last year :) all my injuries have healed but I still have protective reflexes and some really strong emotions about it. Trauma is powerful!
      - someothherguyy 2y ago
        take less? like saying cocaine concentration has skyrocketed. you did too much, calm down, hasn't killed very many people.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
bb123 2y ago
I'm not really surprised by this finding. My anecdotal experience has been that pretty much everyone knows a friend or a friend of a friend who smoked too much pot and had their life go off the rails. It is pretty clear to me that it is not a harmless herb despite that being the commonly held belief on places like Reddit.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  While I also have anecdotal experience that suggests early-life cannabis abuse can lead to short-term memory loss, I have not seen any evidence that it leads to much else. I would imagine that people with a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia would only not have it by chance, and that altering their brain with pretty much anything can risk upsetting that balance. Doesn't matter if it's weed, LSD, opioids... SSRIs, stimulants...
  - throw__away7391 2y ago
    Conspiracy theories. Every heavy pot smoker I know has ended up believing in multiple conspiracy theories. Back in the day before YouTube my friends were burning DVDs of 9-11 Truther documentaries, a chick I dated became obsessed with UFOs and alien abductions, a close family member began to believe they had found a way to develop psychic powers, and the boomers who got their medical marijuana cards deserve their own category based on the number of right wing conspiracy theories they repost on Facebook. The only exception I can think of got heavily into sports betting with a similar level of obsession and belief that they had deep insights that escaped everyone else. I suspect that it triggers part of your brain that rewards you for making connections or something like that.
    - ryandvm 2y ago
      Or people that are willing to engage in counter culture or illegal activities are more likely to reject cultural doctrine.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
aurareturn 2y ago
Schizophrenia symptoms: Hallucinations (e.g., hearing voices), delusions (e.g., believing one has special powers), disorganized speech and behavior, reduced emotional expression, lack of motivation, withdrawal from social interactions, problems with attention, memory, and decision-making Yep. Had nearly all of the above when I was bored out of my mind and smoked every single day during covid. I was working remotely and was high half of the time I worked. That went on for about 1 year. Thank goodness I was a mature adult when I first started and could eventually remember that life was better without weed. Sober for 1.5 years now. I highly recommend r/leaves to read other people's stories trying or wanting to quit weed. Edit: For those wondering, after being sober for 1.5 years, I'm pretty much back to my old self. My memory took a while to come back but it's drastically better than it was when I first quit. I feel much more motivated in life. My relationships with family and friends are better and so is my physical health. I was smoking about 0.5g - 2g/day for 1.5 years.
- highasfcuk 2y ago
  Nearly all are all symptoms of depression, delusions with manic depression. Nearly all are symptoms of being stoned too. It's unlikely you were experiencing schizophrenia unless you were actually hearing voices, thinking that you were a "Targeted Invididual", things like that.
  - aurareturn 2y ago
    I was merely going by the symptoms after a simple google search. I wasn't hearing voices. I never got to that point though I believe I would have eventually had I continued. The weed I had access to were of questionably quality and wasn't professionally grown like the dispensary ones. I also never tried THC oil or other super strong weed products - which I read can drastically increase schizophrenia.
sandworm101 2y ago
The big question remains: is this downside worse than the innumerable and absolute known downsides associated with alcohol? If not, this is a purely acedemic issue.
- portaouflop 2y ago
  alcohol is proven to kill tens of thousands every year — obviously much worse than a few people who develop mental issues. Regardless in a free society people should have agency over what they do with their bodies. Education about these substances is the most important thing.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "Education about these substances is the most important thing." Indeed. "obviously much worse than a few people who develop mental issues." So maybe start by comparing the average heavy weed smoker, to the average non drug user, to see if the issue with cannabis is really "just some people developing mental issues" (Disclaimer blabla: I always was pro legalisation and am happy, it finally is legal in germany now)
    - Perenti 2y ago
      History has shown that _bad_ education about substances doesn't work, as most kids know that pot rarely turns you into an axe wielding homicidal maniac. Educate using the truth - pot probably won't turn you crazy, but it might cost a lot of money and waste a lot of time.
    - portaouflop 2y ago
      For what it’s worth education sees alcohol as a much less harmful substance than weed (for example in Germany since you brought it up) - it’s completely acceptable to drink heavily every weekend to the point of almost landing in the hospital, while heavy weed use is seen as very deplorable (lazy etc). So while weed is not without harm i think alcohol has a magnitudes worse impact on society
a_cardboard_box 2y ago
> The annual incidence of schizophrenia was stable over time, while the incidence of psychosis NOS increased from 30.0 to 55.1 per 100 000 individuals (83.7%) in the postlegalization period relative to the prelegalization period. So increased cannabis use after legalization did not result in increased rates of schizophrenia, though it might have made some cases worse.
- mlyle 2y ago
  Maybe not even worse. This is looking at what fraction of schizophrenia cases had significant cannabis use. If more people use cannabis, there will be more of these cases, even if there's no causal link.
  - throwawaymaths 2y ago
    causality might go the other way. having had a friend that was so, i wonder if a significant fraction of schizophrenics use cannabis to be functional in society
- appstorelottery 2y ago
  Cannabis misuse appears linked to a larger share of schizophrenia cases as I understand it.
  - ty6853 2y ago
    Schizophrenics love to smoke. My unscientific guess is something like 80% smoke a nicotine product or weed.
    - zxexz 2y ago
      Not sure why you're being downvoted. The link is well-documented. I'm pretty certain the only controversies here are in causality.
    - anjel 2y ago
      Scott Alexander wrote an article [0] on the mild antipsychotic effects of nicotine as the reason why such a high proportion of people battling psychosis smoke cigarettes. [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/11/schizophrenia-no-smoking-gun/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/11/schizophrenia-no-smoki...
nick__m 2y ago
According to what i remember reading in 2010 (maybe the science has changed in the last fifteen years but I doubt it) People with the Val158Met COMT polymorphism are more susceptible to develop schizophrenia sooner if they are exposed to cannabis. And that genetic mutation make them more successible to have cannabis use disorder. Knowing that I don't understand the question that this study is attempting to answer.
HiroshiSan 2y ago
A lot of people like to pretend that smoking weed is harmless. I support legalization but from my personal experience, I’ve suffered psychosis twice after smoking weed, and that’s enough for me.
- monero-xmr 2y ago
  It is incredible that the slightest increase in any cancer associated with alcohol is immediately trumpeted, but no matter how much research shows marijuana has dangers, the stoners always brush it off. Just accept the risks and live your life. Nothing is without risk. Drink your beer and smoke your joint, why bother living if you aren’t going to enjoy yourself
  - someothherguyy 2y ago
    Plenty do those things out of desperation, disease, and despair. In some, that leads to generations of harm. To many, the risks aren't even part of the equation.
  - redeux 2y ago
    There are people who minimize risks of both pot and alcohol but most of the adults I speak to that use marijuana understand the risks.
  - codr7 2y ago
    Alcohol is poison, really. Cannabis is one of the least toxic substances available. They have absolutely nothing in common.
- barnabyjones 2y ago
  I agree it can cause those effects but it always seemed to me that the weed is just causing sleep deprivation which eventually leads to psychosis. IME it's not much different from alcohol in that way, they both disturb REM sleep so you end up deprived with daily use. It's just more apparent with weed because you don't get the hangover effects, so it's easy to overuse.
Perenti 2y ago
As a population based study, how did they control for other substances? Acid in particular is notorious for flashbacks years later that can be psychotic. I also note that the period in question is also associated with massive increase in methamphetamine abuse. Greater access to THC being associated with an increase in crazy people using it makes complete sense, but is a causal link between legislation and schizophrenia really demonstrated amongst chronic potheads (the study is about psychosis in people with CAD), that being the subject of the paper?
- elevaet 2y ago
  Are acid flashbacks real? I thought that was an urban myth.. I've never had one and I don't think I've ever encountered someone who has. It seems like one of those drug war era scare tactics or viral rumours.
  - bcoates 2y ago
    HPPD is probably real but it's hard to tell what the base rate is in non-users (idiopathic visual disturbances are hard to test for) Psychotic acid flashbacks aren't real
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
m3kw9 2y ago
Don’t do drugs
djaouen 2y ago
I was diagnosed schizophrenic without any use of cannabis. What prize do I get????
morpheos137 2y ago
I have used weed a number of times. I also consider myself a schizoid personality disorder person. Supposedly that is on the very mild end of Schizophrenia. I have never found it to lead to psychosis or anxiety in myself. All it does for me is make me feel relaxed and euphoric. If I use a lot I feel more relaxed and euphoric. I am normally a person who is very detached from what people call a sense of self. I believe this immunizes me from the anxiety many feel when losing self control under substances. I do find annoying how many "pot heads" seem to think that weed is a panacea rather than a pacifier with some risks for some people. Although the effects are different I would very much consider it akin to alcohol or an opiate. If you have problems it will likely make them harder to deal with. If you are just looking to relax or escape and are not prone to anxiety then it is effective but in my experience not much different from alcohol or opiates except less physical harms or potential for physical addiction. I agree with the posters that for many if not most people, including myself, weed can give the illusion of some special insights or special connections to others but it is important to recognize just that, that this is an illusion, that our subjective feelings at any given time do not necessarily correspond to objective reality. It is shocking to me how many people in all kinds of areas of life think that because they feel something is true it must be true or important or relevant. Weed evidently makes many weed users feel it is a wonder drug, thus propagating and sustaining the mind virus. I think it should be legal. I also think if you want to be successful in life habitual use is ill-advised. I can certainly see how for anxious, over thinking, controlling types it could lead to psychosis, like any number of other things, even including ideas. However I believe this effect is more due to a pre-existing neurotic psychology of the specific user rather than an intrinsic property of the drug. But regardless it's not harmless. Additionally the long term effects are not well known.

72 points by Cyclone_ 2y ago

I've tried cannabis a few times but I couldn't get it to do nearly anything at all. I've tried a few different kinds and also tried THC tincture, but could never get anything to happen other than some slight dissociation. Is that "stoned"? Is my brain just not receptive to it or something?

djkoolaide 2y ago
People have this strange concept that weed is supposed to make you see rainbows and stuff lol. I'd say your experience is about normal.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  I've never heard about rainbows and stuff, at least not for weed. I've heard for some people it increases their depth perception to potentially painful levels, I've heard for some people it makes them feel like they can see with their eyes closed, I've heard for some people it makes daydreams more vivid/accessible, I've heard for some people it makes things feel/appear funnier than they actually are... but for me it's just some slight dissociation, which doesn't exactly manifest as a particularly interesting or impaired experience since I experience dissociation all the time just naturally (thanks to my dissociative disorder).
- guelo 2y ago
  No that is not normal. Normal is noticing within a mini or two that your mind is significantly altered.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    In my experience a lot of people are not great at telling when their mind is altered. Myself included at times.
ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y ago
[flagged]
- LoganDark 2y ago
  (I replied to an earlier version of the parent whose text I don't have in my browser cache, oops.) Ah but you see, I don't even identify as a member of that species at all :) (I am used to people telling me essentially boo hoo.) > I mean, whats the worse that can happen? You might develop schizophrenia? I'd like the opportunity to try it at least. Along with like... most things. Even/especially the stuff that is most stereotyped.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
iammrpayments 2y ago
It just made me feel 0 anxiety, but I thought the experience was not good enough to justify breaking the law
- codr7 2y ago
  The law is broken, you couldn't break it more if you tried.
portaouflop 2y ago
Every human brain is different, some smoke a lot of pot and develop serious mental issues— others smoke a ton for years and you don’t notice any change. The problem imo with this kinds of studies is that people can’t take the nuance and rather see it as “weed = bad” or some other binary outcome. Imo all drugs have a potential to be dangerous — all adults should have free agency what they do with their bodies. Sure cannabis, alcohol or mushrooms are dangerous, but I would argue a society that makes their use completely illegal without nuance is not a free society
- pea 2y ago
  It's very interesting. I am extremely sensitive to THC, in a way I am not to any other drugs. A small amount (5mg) gives me full on disassociation/derealization, very anxious thoughts, etc. I always wondered if other people had the same experience of THC as I did, but responded _psychologically_ differently to me, or if it was a _physiologically_ different experience. It was very confusing during high school. Bizarrely I've found this react to weed much more common in the UK than California. There would be no reason for that to be true, though.
  - ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y ago
    > A small amount (5mg) gives me full on disassociation/derealization, very anxious thoughts, etc It is pretty common for people to have panic attacks while using cannabis. Those can be the symptoms of a panic attack. > There would be no reason for that to be true, though. Concentration, cannabinoid composition, adulteration (analogues, enhancement, etc), contamination (heavy metals, pesticides, mold, environmental or biotic toxins) are a few things that come to mind.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    > I always wondered if other people had the same experience of THC as I did, but responded _psychologically_ differently to me, or if it was a _physiologically_ different experience. It was very confusing during high school. I wonder this too. Maybe, say, non-autistic people would interpret differently what I see as mild dissociation, and experience all of the... whatever the fuck THC is supposed to do to Normal People. Or so the theory goes.
bongodongobob 2y ago
This sounds snarky but you just didn't do enough.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  I'm not sure how to do more. I think in all cases I tried to take as much as I could. I basically can't smoke or vape it because every time I try, I feel like I'm going to choke and die, and I cough for something like 5 minutes straight. When I tried the tincture, I took 50mg of THC orally. (250mg per 30oz, so 6oz.) Although I guess I could just be unable to take THC orally, which would suck, because smoking it is miserable. (I am really not a smoker...)
  - bongodongobob 2y ago
    Yeah, edibles don't do much for me either. Hit a vape pen.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      I have one. Makes me feel like my lungs are about to explode and I can't breathe for like 5 minutes after. I hate it.
Havoc 2y ago
Sounds like a dosage situation. A lot of the tincture stuff just isn’t all that strong. Effect wise - I mostly notice it in sensation of time. Two hours feels like four. And it’s not smooth flow of time - almost skips occasionally.
csomar 2y ago
Your brain is not receptive. This could be a worse, however. If you have schizophrenia within the family, you might be at risk. The doctor strongly recommended I do not take any cannabis because there is a risk it triggers a psychosis episode. I wouldn’t see cannabis having no effect as good news as that’s not representative of the average experience.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  I've been trying to cause a psychotic episode for years and so far have not yet succeeded :) I think the sticking point for me is that I refuse to knowingly cause myself permanent brain damage. That heavily limits my options.
  - csomar 2y ago
    Triggering a psychotic episode is a very dangerous thing as it can turn into permanent psychosis. That's one of the dangers of cannabis and LSD.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      Sometimes I still wonder if that would even be such a bad thing. But maybe I'm not fit to make that determination lol
Perenti 2y ago
I knew a few people when I was young (20s) that "pot does nothing" to them. Then one day they took a toke from a joint going round and were totally munged. I've seen it a few times, and I have no idea why it's like that for some people.
rufus_foreman 2y ago
That was my experience also. I would smoke with my stoner friends, and it didn't seem to do much. I would think maybe I wasn't inhaling enough or something but then I would look in the mirror and my eyes were blood red. I think it's just an expectations thing. I was doing max doses of acid for a long time before I ever used marijuana, and that ain't "some slight dissociation". On acid, you would watch the houses across the street stand up, join hands, and dance around in circles. Pot just didn't move the needle.

ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y ago

Maybe an increase in misdiagnosis?

42772827 2y ago
Could also just be an increase in symptoms the person already had but in minor form. We tend to think of people as being either schizophrenic or... "not," but it seems far more likely that it exists, like everything in humans, on a spectrum.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  Ah yes, the autism vs schizophrenia spectrum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHuFSnhKG9I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHuFSnhKG9I I don't think pretty much any of that video is reliably supported but oh boy is it food for thought.
- baking 2y ago
  People develop schizophrenia in their early twenties. Once it develops, you have it for life. The evidence is that cannabis use at an early age makes people who are susceptible to schizophrenia unable to control it and it fucks up the rest of their life. Some people smoke a ton of pot and never develop schizophrenia. Some people who are susceptible to schizophrenia and wait until their late 20's to smoke pot or use it minimally before then are able to avoid schizophrenia. This is a perfectly valid reason to avoid heavy cannabis use before the age of 25.
throw18376 2y ago
it's pretty hard to establish causality for something like this, but you have: 1) very solid evidence of correlation at a population level 2) a lot of clinical experience from doctors that patients with psychotic disorder diagnoses who use cannabis tend to do worse. and, similar stories from family members of people with psychotic symptoms who aren't in treatment. so unfortunately I think there is something real here, it's not just people having transient bad reactions to weed and going to the ER and getting a diagnosis.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

xyst 2y ago

Explains the downfall of Elmo [1]. Bro hasn’t been the same since that fateful day on JRE. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45445554 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45445554

inverted_flag 2y ago
This may be a joke, but with the ultra-potent weed available nowadays, one time is really all it takes to cause serious psychological changes.
- highasfcuk 2y ago
  "ultra-potent weed" is weak and you need to stop with that talking point. SWIM are on 90%+ THC cartridges or concentrates 24/7. Smoking the strongest weed, low 30%s, is a tolerance break thing or for fun.
  - inverted_flag 2y ago
    THC% has skyrocketed over the last 20 years, that’s well documented. I know from experience that one time is all it takes to mess you up.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      A lot of things can mess you up after only one time. For example, I got hit by a truck in July of last year :) all my injuries have healed but I still have protective reflexes and some really strong emotions about it. Trauma is powerful!
    - someothherguyy 2y ago
      take less? like saying cocaine concentration has skyrocketed. you did too much, calm down, hasn't killed very many people.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

bb123 2y ago

I'm not really surprised by this finding. My anecdotal experience has been that pretty much everyone knows a friend or a friend of a friend who smoked too much pot and had their life go off the rails. It is pretty clear to me that it is not a harmless herb despite that being the commonly held belief on places like Reddit.

LoganDark 2y ago
While I also have anecdotal experience that suggests early-life cannabis abuse can lead to short-term memory loss, I have not seen any evidence that it leads to much else. I would imagine that people with a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia would only not have it by chance, and that altering their brain with pretty much anything can risk upsetting that balance. Doesn't matter if it's weed, LSD, opioids... SSRIs, stimulants...
- throw__away7391 2y ago
  Conspiracy theories. Every heavy pot smoker I know has ended up believing in multiple conspiracy theories. Back in the day before YouTube my friends were burning DVDs of 9-11 Truther documentaries, a chick I dated became obsessed with UFOs and alien abductions, a close family member began to believe they had found a way to develop psychic powers, and the boomers who got their medical marijuana cards deserve their own category based on the number of right wing conspiracy theories they repost on Facebook. The only exception I can think of got heavily into sports betting with a similar level of obsession and belief that they had deep insights that escaped everyone else. I suspect that it triggers part of your brain that rewards you for making connections or something like that.
  - ryandvm 2y ago
    Or people that are willing to engage in counter culture or illegal activities are more likely to reject cultural doctrine.
    - LoganDark 2y ago

aurareturn 2y ago

Schizophrenia symptoms: Hallucinations (e.g., hearing voices), delusions (e.g., believing one has special powers), disorganized speech and behavior, reduced emotional expression, lack of motivation, withdrawal from social interactions, problems with attention, memory, and decision-making Yep. Had nearly all of the above when I was bored out of my mind and smoked every single day during covid. I was working remotely and was high half of the time I worked. That went on for about 1 year. Thank goodness I was a mature adult when I first started and could eventually remember that life was better without weed. Sober for 1.5 years now. I highly recommend r/leaves to read other people's stories trying or wanting to quit weed. Edit: For those wondering, after being sober for 1.5 years, I'm pretty much back to my old self. My memory took a while to come back but it's drastically better than it was when I first quit. I feel much more motivated in life. My relationships with family and friends are better and so is my physical health. I was smoking about 0.5g - 2g/day for 1.5 years.

highasfcuk 2y ago
Nearly all are all symptoms of depression, delusions with manic depression. Nearly all are symptoms of being stoned too. It's unlikely you were experiencing schizophrenia unless you were actually hearing voices, thinking that you were a "Targeted Invididual", things like that.
- aurareturn 2y ago
  I was merely going by the symptoms after a simple google search. I wasn't hearing voices. I never got to that point though I believe I would have eventually had I continued. The weed I had access to were of questionably quality and wasn't professionally grown like the dispensary ones. I also never tried THC oil or other super strong weed products - which I read can drastically increase schizophrenia.

sandworm101 2y ago

The big question remains: is this downside worse than the innumerable and absolute known downsides associated with alcohol? If not, this is a purely acedemic issue.

portaouflop 2y ago
alcohol is proven to kill tens of thousands every year — obviously much worse than a few people who develop mental issues. Regardless in a free society people should have agency over what they do with their bodies. Education about these substances is the most important thing.
- lukan 2y ago
  "Education about these substances is the most important thing." Indeed. "obviously much worse than a few people who develop mental issues." So maybe start by comparing the average heavy weed smoker, to the average non drug user, to see if the issue with cannabis is really "just some people developing mental issues" (Disclaimer blabla: I always was pro legalisation and am happy, it finally is legal in germany now)
  - Perenti 2y ago
    History has shown that _bad_ education about substances doesn't work, as most kids know that pot rarely turns you into an axe wielding homicidal maniac. Educate using the truth - pot probably won't turn you crazy, but it might cost a lot of money and waste a lot of time.
  - portaouflop 2y ago
    For what it’s worth education sees alcohol as a much less harmful substance than weed (for example in Germany since you brought it up) - it’s completely acceptable to drink heavily every weekend to the point of almost landing in the hospital, while heavy weed use is seen as very deplorable (lazy etc). So while weed is not without harm i think alcohol has a magnitudes worse impact on society

a_cardboard_box 2y ago

> The annual incidence of schizophrenia was stable over time, while the incidence of psychosis NOS increased from 30.0 to 55.1 per 100 000 individuals (83.7%) in the postlegalization period relative to the prelegalization period. So increased cannabis use after legalization did not result in increased rates of schizophrenia, though it might have made some cases worse.

mlyle 2y ago
Maybe not even worse. This is looking at what fraction of schizophrenia cases had significant cannabis use. If more people use cannabis, there will be more of these cases, even if there's no causal link.
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  causality might go the other way. having had a friend that was so, i wonder if a significant fraction of schizophrenics use cannabis to be functional in society
appstorelottery 2y ago
Cannabis misuse appears linked to a larger share of schizophrenia cases as I understand it.
- ty6853 2y ago
  Schizophrenics love to smoke. My unscientific guess is something like 80% smoke a nicotine product or weed.
  - zxexz 2y ago
    Not sure why you're being downvoted. The link is well-documented. I'm pretty certain the only controversies here are in causality.
  - anjel 2y ago
    Scott Alexander wrote an article [0] on the mild antipsychotic effects of nicotine as the reason why such a high proportion of people battling psychosis smoke cigarettes. [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/11/schizophrenia-no-smoking-gun/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/11/schizophrenia-no-smoki...

nick__m 2y ago

According to what i remember reading in 2010 (maybe the science has changed in the last fifteen years but I doubt it) People with the Val158Met COMT polymorphism are more susceptible to develop schizophrenia sooner if they are exposed to cannabis. And that genetic mutation make them more successible to have cannabis use disorder. Knowing that I don't understand the question that this study is attempting to answer.

HiroshiSan 2y ago

A lot of people like to pretend that smoking weed is harmless. I support legalization but from my personal experience, I’ve suffered psychosis twice after smoking weed, and that’s enough for me.

monero-xmr 2y ago
It is incredible that the slightest increase in any cancer associated with alcohol is immediately trumpeted, but no matter how much research shows marijuana has dangers, the stoners always brush it off. Just accept the risks and live your life. Nothing is without risk. Drink your beer and smoke your joint, why bother living if you aren’t going to enjoy yourself
- someothherguyy 2y ago
  Plenty do those things out of desperation, disease, and despair. In some, that leads to generations of harm. To many, the risks aren't even part of the equation.
- redeux 2y ago
  There are people who minimize risks of both pot and alcohol but most of the adults I speak to that use marijuana understand the risks.
- codr7 2y ago
  Alcohol is poison, really. Cannabis is one of the least toxic substances available. They have absolutely nothing in common.
barnabyjones 2y ago
I agree it can cause those effects but it always seemed to me that the weed is just causing sleep deprivation which eventually leads to psychosis. IME it's not much different from alcohol in that way, they both disturb REM sleep so you end up deprived with daily use. It's just more apparent with weed because you don't get the hangover effects, so it's easy to overuse.

Perenti 2y ago

As a population based study, how did they control for other substances? Acid in particular is notorious for flashbacks years later that can be psychotic. I also note that the period in question is also associated with massive increase in methamphetamine abuse. Greater access to THC being associated with an increase in crazy people using it makes complete sense, but is a causal link between legislation and schizophrenia really demonstrated amongst chronic potheads (the study is about psychosis in people with CAD), that being the subject of the paper?

elevaet 2y ago
Are acid flashbacks real? I thought that was an urban myth.. I've never had one and I don't think I've ever encountered someone who has. It seems like one of those drug war era scare tactics or viral rumours.
- bcoates 2y ago
  HPPD is probably real but it's hard to tell what the base rate is in non-users (idiopathic visual disturbances are hard to test for) Psychotic acid flashbacks aren't real
deleted 2y ago
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m3kw9 2y ago

Don’t do drugs

djaouen 2y ago

I was diagnosed schizophrenic without any use of cannabis. What prize do I get????

morpheos137 2y ago

I have used weed a number of times. I also consider myself a schizoid personality disorder person. Supposedly that is on the very mild end of Schizophrenia. I have never found it to lead to psychosis or anxiety in myself. All it does for me is make me feel relaxed and euphoric. If I use a lot I feel more relaxed and euphoric. I am normally a person who is very detached from what people call a sense of self. I believe this immunizes me from the anxiety many feel when losing self control under substances. I do find annoying how many "pot heads" seem to think that weed is a panacea rather than a pacifier with some risks for some people. Although the effects are different I would very much consider it akin to alcohol or an opiate. If you have problems it will likely make them harder to deal with. If you are just looking to relax or escape and are not prone to anxiety then it is effective but in my experience not much different from alcohol or opiates except less physical harms or potential for physical addiction. I agree with the posters that for many if not most people, including myself, weed can give the illusion of some special insights or special connections to others but it is important to recognize just that, that this is an illusion, that our subjective feelings at any given time do not necessarily correspond to objective reality. It is shocking to me how many people in all kinds of areas of life think that because they feel something is true it must be true or important or relevant. Weed evidently makes many weed users feel it is a wonder drug, thus propagating and sustaining the mind virus. I think it should be legal. I also think if you want to be successful in life habitual use is ill-advised. I can certainly see how for anxious, over thinking, controlling types it could lead to psychosis, like any number of other things, even including ideas. However I believe this effect is more due to a pre-existing neurotic psychology of the specific user rather than an intrinsic property of the drug. But regardless it's not harmless. Additionally the long term effects are not well known.