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> Why? You know you are not going to use X. The only benefit you could get from learning about Debian’s change of policy is only the dubious pleasure of having

> Why? You know you are not going to use X. The only benefit you could get from learning about Debian’s change of policy is only the dubious pleasure of having your preexisting beliefs validated. No, I appreciate learning their stance on it because now I know they do actually stand by the values that are posted on their website, and I know that I won’t need to be looking for an alternative Linux distribution. > Debian is not making this announcement to everyone, Yes, they are. Posting only to Twitter would reach a smaller audience. Or are you saying that the average Twitter user doesn’t know/care to surf the web? > This is a very low and cheap way to get appreciation How so? > and only worsens the politicization and polarization of the issue. Human rights are not a political issue, and a site that is run by, staffed by, and platforms people who wish to take away human rights should be shunned, loudly and often.

teddyh 2y ago
> No, I appreciate learning their stance on it because now I know they do actually stand by the values that are posted on their website, and I know that I won’t need to be looking for an alternative Linux distribution. This fits my description exactly. You gained no useful information from this announcement, and you will change nothing in your behaviour as a result of it. The only thing which this announcement gave you is a nice fuzzy feeling of validation. > Yes, they are. Compared to what Debian could have reasonably done – i.e. post the announcement to the actual X account which Debian is closing – announcing to the entire world that Debian no will longer post to X is announcing to the subset of the world which does not use or read X. > How so? It is giving people warm fuzzy feelings of being vindicated in their beliefs, when these specific beliefs are not, IMHO, relevant for Debian. > Human rights are not a political issue, and a site that is run by, staffed by, and platforms people who wish to take away human rights should be shunned, loudly and often. That ”or platforms” is doing a lot of heavy lifting. By this reasoning, anyone using the internet, or the web, at all is implicitly supporting a platform used by a lot of unpleasant people with unsavory beliefs. Or if the internet is too big, how about Google? Should Google be “shunned” if they don’t black-hole certain sites and beliefs in Google’s search results? Should Google Maps remove all references to unwanted people or businesses? Should Cloudflare be held liable for every site Cloudflare provides DDoS protection for? How about hosting providers? Internet service providers who provide peering with any of the above? Your list of people to shun grows long very quickly. Not to mention that of you do get your way, once the mechanisms have been put in place, they will easily turn on a dime to suppress your beliefs instead. Also, why should Debian, specifically, take on the public advocacy role against X? Debian is not supposed to advocate for every single thing which you think is good – Debian is supposed to restrict their advocacy to issues relevant to Debian.
- deleted 2y ago
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- angoragoats 2y ago
  I don't think you're arguing in good faith here. Have a good one!
  - belorn 2y ago
    Is it so hard to believe that some people do not want to mix software advocacy with political advocacy? It no more bad faith than people arguing that they want to keep their professional life and personal life separate. I find it much easier to trust Debian if they don't involve themself with world politics and focus on software freedoms. Same with a company if they focus on being a company rather than a political advocacy.
    - angoragoats 2y ago
      Advocating for the right of minorities and other disadvantaged groups to exist is not “world politics” and it saddens me that I’ve had to say this multiple times on this site.
      - teddyh 2y ago
        > Advocating for the right of minorities and other disadvantaged groups to exist is not “world politics” The top-level topic was the stated reason for Debian to stop posting on X, which was “[…] we feel X doesn't reflect Debian shared values as stated in our social contract, code of conduct and diversity statement. X evolved into a place where people we care about don't feel safe.”. This does not even name who is feeling unsafe, and certainly does not say that X is against the existence of “minorities and other disadvantaged groups”. And this is not even relevant to our subtopic in this tree, where I have never argued against the existence of anyone. It is utterly disingenous of you to cast aspersions that everyone not agreeing with you – in this case me – are standing with what X is being indirectly accused of.
  - 2y ago

teddyh 2y ago

> No, I appreciate learning their stance on it because now I know they do actually stand by the values that are posted on their website, and I know that I won’t need to be looking for an alternative Linux distribution. This fits my description exactly. You gained no useful information from this announcement, and you will change nothing in your behaviour as a result of it. The only thing which this announcement gave you is a nice fuzzy feeling of validation. > Yes, they are. Compared to what Debian could have reasonably done – i.e. post the announcement to the actual X account which Debian is closing – announcing to the entire world that Debian no will longer post to X is announcing to the subset of the world which does not use or read X. > How so? It is giving people warm fuzzy feelings of being vindicated in their beliefs, when these specific beliefs are not, IMHO, relevant for Debian. > Human rights are not a political issue, and a site that is run by, staffed by, and platforms people who wish to take away human rights should be shunned, loudly and often. That ”or platforms” is doing a lot of heavy lifting. By this reasoning, anyone using the internet, or the web, at all is implicitly supporting a platform used by a lot of unpleasant people with unsavory beliefs. Or if the internet is too big, how about Google? Should Google be “shunned” if they don’t black-hole certain sites and beliefs in Google’s search results? Should Google Maps remove all references to unwanted people or businesses? Should Cloudflare be held liable for every site Cloudflare provides DDoS protection for? How about hosting providers? Internet service providers who provide peering with any of the above? Your list of people to shun grows long very quickly. Not to mention that of you do get your way, once the mechanisms have been put in place, they will easily turn on a dime to suppress your beliefs instead. Also, why should Debian, specifically, take on the public advocacy role against X? Debian is not supposed to advocate for every single thing which you think is good – Debian is supposed to restrict their advocacy to issues relevant to Debian.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
angoragoats 2y ago
I don't think you're arguing in good faith here. Have a good one!
- belorn 2y ago
  Is it so hard to believe that some people do not want to mix software advocacy with political advocacy? It no more bad faith than people arguing that they want to keep their professional life and personal life separate. I find it much easier to trust Debian if they don't involve themself with world politics and focus on software freedoms. Same with a company if they focus on being a company rather than a political advocacy.
  - angoragoats 2y ago
    Advocating for the right of minorities and other disadvantaged groups to exist is not “world politics” and it saddens me that I’ve had to say this multiple times on this site.
    - teddyh 2y ago
      > Advocating for the right of minorities and other disadvantaged groups to exist is not “world politics” The top-level topic was the stated reason for Debian to stop posting on X, which was “[…] we feel X doesn't reflect Debian shared values as stated in our social contract, code of conduct and diversity statement. X evolved into a place where people we care about don't feel safe.”. This does not even name who is feeling unsafe, and certainly does not say that X is against the existence of “minorities and other disadvantaged groups”. And this is not even relevant to our subtopic in this tree, where I have never argued against the existence of anyone. It is utterly disingenous of you to cast aspersions that everyone not agreeing with you – in this case me – are standing with what X is being indirectly accused of.
- 2y ago