3 ms·

I don't pragmatically disagree with you, but this is a debatable point. Technically going to college is to learn knowledge about a topic. For computer science,

by leros 2y ago

I don't pragmatically disagree with you, but this is a debatable point. Technically going to college is to learn knowledge about a topic. For computer science, that would be learning the theory of computing. What you're talking about is a trade school to become a software engineer. There are people who want to get a PhD in computer science or go on to do research of some kind. Those people do need a theory based computer science curriculum, not just a software engineering trade school. We currently conflate these two things. It mostly works out but we should really be more explicit about it in my opinion. I went to a top CS program and I learned 90% of what I needed to know to be a software engineer at my first job, not in school. Something about that feels off to me.

scarface_74 2y ago
There are around 5000 PHDs graduating in CS per year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/185353/number-of-doctoral-degrees-by-field-of-research/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/185353/number-of-doctora... There are over 100K CS graduates per year. https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/nscblog/computer-science-has-highest-increase-in-bachelors-earners https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/nscblog/computer-scienc... How many of those 100K students do you think are interested in learning the theory of computer science or are interested in getting a job? How many jobs are available in the US for pure “computer scientist” and in an ultra competitive job market, why would anyone hire someone who doesn’t know how to code when they can get someone for around the same price who can?
- leros 2y ago
  I don't disagree with any of this. I'm just explaining that universities are not trade schools, even though we often treat them like they are. The theory is that somebody with a background in computer science is going be more likely to be capable at being a software engineer. There is a high correlation between the two. But nonetheless, that does not make a computer science program a software engineering trade school.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Wouldn’t someone with a computer science background and knowing how to actual program be better? If I need someone who can actual code your standard enterprise development - where most developers work - who would I be better off hiring, someone who knows theory or someone who knows how to code? Do doctors, lawyers, teachers or any other professionals graduate just knowing “theory”?
    - leros 2y ago
      Medical school and law school are professional programs you take after your bachelors degree. I've seen some discussion about making engineering programs something you do after a pre-engineering bachelor degree, simply because you can't learn enough in 4 years to really learn those fields. I think a better comparison to what you're saying is that getting a history degree doesn't qualify you to become a history teacher, you still need to take a teaching program on top of it. I personally double majored in EE and CS and neither program prepared me for working in those fields. They just gave me the theoretically background and not very much application experience. For EE, you barely learn enough physics and background stuff to just start doing a bit of application engineering in your senior year. Another 2 years on top of that is definitely required for job training. And that's one of the program they're thinking of making a 4+2 years thing. I think you could modify a CS program to have less theory and more practical application classes, but that would be software engineering trade school, not computer science. I did do a software engineering masters on top my CS undergrad and that was more helpful to a degree for job preparation. I will say I haven't used very much of the computer science theory I learned at my jobs so that wasn't a good use of time for job training.
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        I graduated with a degree in computer science from a state school back in the 90s and it tried to prepare people for a job. Would I have been prepared to design and write a double entry, networked, data entry program with 10 screens in C with a database backend by myself as my first job with just the degree? Maybe? I learned C in college. But I learned to program in assembly and a little BASIC before going to college by being self taught. Yeah we did a DS&A class, networking, and I believe a database class was offered soon after I graduated. But we also learned how to code. Now it seems quaint that some of the coding classes were in COBOL and FORTRAN. But I have a classmate that is still working for the same payment processing he got a job at in 1995 and still doing COBOL. This is a specific 4 year degree to become a teacher and the first link that showed up when I was looking for a math teacher (my mom is a retired math teacher) https://www.ucf.edu/degree/secondary-education-bs/mathematics-ed-education-track/ https://www.ucf.edu/degree/secondary-education-bs/mathematic... As part of the requirements to become a teacher you have to do student teaching. Would you call this a trade school? Part of the ranking criteria for how USA Today ranks colleges (not “trade schools”) is getting a well paying job after leaving. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/09/18/us-news-changes-college-rankings/70895061007/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRankings%2520are%2520someone's%2520opinion%2520filtered,'re%2520playing%2520with%2520numbers.%E2%80%9D https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/09/18/us-new... People go to college and get a bachelors with the hope of getting a job with the exception of those getting an undergrad degree with the expectation of doing post grad work for a specialty that requires it with the hopes of learning skills to get a job. This is a 4 year nursing degree. After passing the exam you are qualified to be a nurse. Again not a “trade school” https://valenciacollege.edu/academics/programs/health-sciences/nursing https://valenciacollege.edu/academics/programs/health-scienc... This is GA Tech’s computer science program - again not a “trade school”. They focus on practical skills and “building” things. I looked up GT because I was accepted here decades ago in their computer science program. But decided on going somewhere else. https://catalog.gatech.edu/programs/computer-science-bs/ https://catalog.gatech.edu/programs/computer-science-bs/ And if you back up a page; “Focus: building on a base of fundamentals in programming and computational theory to provide a solid foundation of knowledge and skills for applying digital processes effectively to issues of broad interest in a global society.” Applied learning is the opposite of theory and they teach “programming”. And here they are focus on “careers” none of which is about getting a PHD or learning for the sake of learning. https://www.cc.gatech.edu/explore-your-degree https://www.cc.gatech.edu/explore-your-degree Here is GT’s Applied Physics degree which they specifically call out how it leads to a job and not just theory https://www.gatech.edu/academics/degrees/bachelors/applied-physics-bs https://www.gatech.edu/academics/degrees/bachelors/applied-p...

by leros 2y ago

scarface_74 2y ago

There are around 5000 PHDs graduating in CS per year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/185353/number-of-doctoral-degrees-by-field-of-research/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/185353/number-of-doctora... There are over 100K CS graduates per year. https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/nscblog/computer-science-has-highest-increase-in-bachelors-earners https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/nscblog/computer-scienc... How many of those 100K students do you think are interested in learning the theory of computer science or are interested in getting a job? How many jobs are available in the US for pure “computer scientist” and in an ultra competitive job market, why would anyone hire someone who doesn’t know how to code when they can get someone for around the same price who can?

leros 2y ago
I don't disagree with any of this. I'm just explaining that universities are not trade schools, even though we often treat them like they are. The theory is that somebody with a background in computer science is going be more likely to be capable at being a software engineer. There is a high correlation between the two. But nonetheless, that does not make a computer science program a software engineering trade school.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Wouldn’t someone with a computer science background and knowing how to actual program be better? If I need someone who can actual code your standard enterprise development - where most developers work - who would I be better off hiring, someone who knows theory or someone who knows how to code? Do doctors, lawyers, teachers or any other professionals graduate just knowing “theory”?
  - leros 2y ago
    Medical school and law school are professional programs you take after your bachelors degree. I've seen some discussion about making engineering programs something you do after a pre-engineering bachelor degree, simply because you can't learn enough in 4 years to really learn those fields. I think a better comparison to what you're saying is that getting a history degree doesn't qualify you to become a history teacher, you still need to take a teaching program on top of it. I personally double majored in EE and CS and neither program prepared me for working in those fields. They just gave me the theoretically background and not very much application experience. For EE, you barely learn enough physics and background stuff to just start doing a bit of application engineering in your senior year. Another 2 years on top of that is definitely required for job training. And that's one of the program they're thinking of making a 4+2 years thing. I think you could modify a CS program to have less theory and more practical application classes, but that would be software engineering trade school, not computer science. I did do a software engineering masters on top my CS undergrad and that was more helpful to a degree for job preparation. I will say I haven't used very much of the computer science theory I learned at my jobs so that wasn't a good use of time for job training.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      I graduated with a degree in computer science from a state school back in the 90s and it tried to prepare people for a job. Would I have been prepared to design and write a double entry, networked, data entry program with 10 screens in C with a database backend by myself as my first job with just the degree? Maybe? I learned C in college. But I learned to program in assembly and a little BASIC before going to college by being self taught. Yeah we did a DS&A class, networking, and I believe a database class was offered soon after I graduated. But we also learned how to code. Now it seems quaint that some of the coding classes were in COBOL and FORTRAN. But I have a classmate that is still working for the same payment processing he got a job at in 1995 and still doing COBOL. This is a specific 4 year degree to become a teacher and the first link that showed up when I was looking for a math teacher (my mom is a retired math teacher) https://www.ucf.edu/degree/secondary-education-bs/mathematics-ed-education-track/ https://www.ucf.edu/degree/secondary-education-bs/mathematic... As part of the requirements to become a teacher you have to do student teaching. Would you call this a trade school? Part of the ranking criteria for how USA Today ranks colleges (not “trade schools”) is getting a well paying job after leaving. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/09/18/us-news-changes-college-rankings/70895061007/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRankings%2520are%2520someone's%2520opinion%2520filtered,'re%2520playing%2520with%2520numbers.%E2%80%9D https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/09/18/us-new... People go to college and get a bachelors with the hope of getting a job with the exception of those getting an undergrad degree with the expectation of doing post grad work for a specialty that requires it with the hopes of learning skills to get a job. This is a 4 year nursing degree. After passing the exam you are qualified to be a nurse. Again not a “trade school” https://valenciacollege.edu/academics/programs/health-sciences/nursing https://valenciacollege.edu/academics/programs/health-scienc... This is GA Tech’s computer science program - again not a “trade school”. They focus on practical skills and “building” things. I looked up GT because I was accepted here decades ago in their computer science program. But decided on going somewhere else. https://catalog.gatech.edu/programs/computer-science-bs/ https://catalog.gatech.edu/programs/computer-science-bs/ And if you back up a page; “Focus: building on a base of fundamentals in programming and computational theory to provide a solid foundation of knowledge and skills for applying digital processes effectively to issues of broad interest in a global society.” Applied learning is the opposite of theory and they teach “programming”. And here they are focus on “careers” none of which is about getting a PHD or learning for the sake of learning. https://www.cc.gatech.edu/explore-your-degree https://www.cc.gatech.edu/explore-your-degree Here is GT’s Applied Physics degree which they specifically call out how it leads to a job and not just theory https://www.gatech.edu/academics/degrees/bachelors/applied-physics-bs https://www.gatech.edu/academics/degrees/bachelors/applied-p...