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Computer Science is about computing theory, algorithms and such, not practical software engineering. You can actually learn computer science without programming

by leros 2y ago

Computer Science is about computing theory, algorithms and such, not practical software engineering. You can actually learn computer science without programming. Game Design should probably be an art school discipline.

amichail 2y ago
Computer science without programming is like making pizza but never eating it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
scarface_74 2y ago
Going to college is about being able to convince some entity with money to give you some of that money in exchange for your labor so then you can exchange that money to support your addiction to food, clothes and shelter. It is perfectly reasonable to spend four years of life and tens of thousands of dollar and expect to learn something you can use to get a job.
- leros 2y ago
  I don't pragmatically disagree with you, but this is a debatable point. Technically going to college is to learn knowledge about a topic. For computer science, that would be learning the theory of computing. What you're talking about is a trade school to become a software engineer. There are people who want to get a PhD in computer science or go on to do research of some kind. Those people do need a theory based computer science curriculum, not just a software engineering trade school. We currently conflate these two things. It mostly works out but we should really be more explicit about it in my opinion. I went to a top CS program and I learned 90% of what I needed to know to be a software engineer at my first job, not in school. Something about that feels off to me.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    There are around 5000 PHDs graduating in CS per year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/185353/number-of-doctoral-degrees-by-field-of-research/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/185353/number-of-doctora... There are over 100K CS graduates per year. https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/nscblog/computer-science-has-highest-increase-in-bachelors-earners https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/nscblog/computer-scienc... How many of those 100K students do you think are interested in learning the theory of computer science or are interested in getting a job? How many jobs are available in the US for pure “computer scientist” and in an ultra competitive job market, why would anyone hire someone who doesn’t know how to code when they can get someone for around the same price who can?
    - leros 2y ago
      I don't disagree with any of this. I'm just explaining that universities are not trade schools, even though we often treat them like they are. The theory is that somebody with a background in computer science is going be more likely to be capable at being a software engineer. There is a high correlation between the two. But nonetheless, that does not make a computer science program a software engineering trade school.
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        Wouldn’t someone with a computer science background and knowing how to actual program be better? If I need someone who can actual code your standard enterprise development - where most developers work - who would I be better off hiring, someone who knows theory or someone who knows how to code? Do doctors, lawyers, teachers or any other professionals graduate just knowing “theory”?
        leros 2y ago
        Medical school and law school are professional programs you take after your bachelors degree. I've seen some discussion about making engineering programs something you do after a pre-engineering bachelor degree, simply because you can't learn enough in 4 years to really learn those fields. I think a better comparison to what you're saying is that getting a history degree doesn't qualify you to become a history teacher, you still need to take a teaching program on top of it. I personally double majored in EE and CS and neither program prepared me for working in those fields. They just gave me the theoretically background and not very much application experience. For EE, you barely learn enough physics and background stuff to just start doing a bit of application engineering in your senior year. Another 2 years on top of that is definitely required for job training. And that's one of the program they're thinking of making a 4+2 years thing. I think you could modify a CS program to have less theory and more practical application classes, but that would be software engineering trade school, not computer science. I did do a software engineering masters on top my CS undergrad and that was more helpful to a degree for job preparation. I will say I haven't used very much of the computer science theory I learned at my jobs so that wasn't a good use of time for job training.

by leros 2y ago

amichail 2y ago

Computer science without programming is like making pizza but never eating it.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

scarface_74 2y ago

Going to college is about being able to convince some entity with money to give you some of that money in exchange for your labor so then you can exchange that money to support your addiction to food, clothes and shelter. It is perfectly reasonable to spend four years of life and tens of thousands of dollar and expect to learn something you can use to get a job.

leros 2y ago
I don't pragmatically disagree with you, but this is a debatable point. Technically going to college is to learn knowledge about a topic. For computer science, that would be learning the theory of computing. What you're talking about is a trade school to become a software engineer. There are people who want to get a PhD in computer science or go on to do research of some kind. Those people do need a theory based computer science curriculum, not just a software engineering trade school. We currently conflate these two things. It mostly works out but we should really be more explicit about it in my opinion. I went to a top CS program and I learned 90% of what I needed to know to be a software engineer at my first job, not in school. Something about that feels off to me.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  There are around 5000 PHDs graduating in CS per year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/185353/number-of-doctoral-degrees-by-field-of-research/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/185353/number-of-doctora... There are over 100K CS graduates per year. https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/nscblog/computer-science-has-highest-increase-in-bachelors-earners https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/nscblog/computer-scienc... How many of those 100K students do you think are interested in learning the theory of computer science or are interested in getting a job? How many jobs are available in the US for pure “computer scientist” and in an ultra competitive job market, why would anyone hire someone who doesn’t know how to code when they can get someone for around the same price who can?
  - leros 2y ago
    I don't disagree with any of this. I'm just explaining that universities are not trade schools, even though we often treat them like they are. The theory is that somebody with a background in computer science is going be more likely to be capable at being a software engineer. There is a high correlation between the two. But nonetheless, that does not make a computer science program a software engineering trade school.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Wouldn’t someone with a computer science background and knowing how to actual program be better? If I need someone who can actual code your standard enterprise development - where most developers work - who would I be better off hiring, someone who knows theory or someone who knows how to code? Do doctors, lawyers, teachers or any other professionals graduate just knowing “theory”?
      - leros 2y ago
        Medical school and law school are professional programs you take after your bachelors degree. I've seen some discussion about making engineering programs something you do after a pre-engineering bachelor degree, simply because you can't learn enough in 4 years to really learn those fields. I think a better comparison to what you're saying is that getting a history degree doesn't qualify you to become a history teacher, you still need to take a teaching program on top of it. I personally double majored in EE and CS and neither program prepared me for working in those fields. They just gave me the theoretically background and not very much application experience. For EE, you barely learn enough physics and background stuff to just start doing a bit of application engineering in your senior year. Another 2 years on top of that is definitely required for job training. And that's one of the program they're thinking of making a 4+2 years thing. I think you could modify a CS program to have less theory and more practical application classes, but that would be software engineering trade school, not computer science. I did do a software engineering masters on top my CS undergrad and that was more helpful to a degree for job preparation. I will say I haven't used very much of the computer science theory I learned at my jobs so that wasn't a good use of time for job training.