7 ms·

I think the headline of the article is pretty misleading as he means that Windows 8 is a catastrophe for Steam because of the Windows 8 app store. Looks like ev

I think the headline of the article is pretty misleading as he means that Windows 8 is a catastrophe for Steam because of the Windows 8 app store. Looks like everyone's upvoting the article because they seem to think that Gabe meant that Windows 8 will be a failure. Instead of having to go through Steam's distribution, games will have the option of going directly to the Windows 8 app store and get featured there, not to mention XBox Live coming to Windows. Anyone know what Steam's cut for game devs is? Microsoft is charging between 20 to 30%, so Steam seems to be very worried about their revenue stream and thus supporting Linux as a hedge. Of course the regular desktop Steam client will keep working, but not on Windows RT ARM devices. Also, doesn't the WinRT support full DirectX? Ref. http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/07/randy-pitchford-on-steam-valve-is-taking-a-larger-share-than-i/ http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/07/randy-pitchford-on-steam-v... Says Pitchford, "It would be much better if Steam was its own business." If Valve spun off the content delivery system, it would also remove the perceived conflict of interest Pitchford takes umbrage with. "Steam helps us as customers, but it's also a money grab, and Valve is exploiting a lot of people in a way that's not totally fair," Pitchford says. "Valve is taking a larger share than it should for the service it's providing. It's exploiting a lot of small guys."

commandar 14y ago
What are you basing this on? The quote in both the linked article and the AllThingsD piece indicates that he said "I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space." He isn't just talking about Valve.
- bcbrown 14y ago
  A business catastrophe, not a usability or market catastrophe. "I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people."
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - cooldeal 14y ago
    You're right, and I also wouldn't trust anything he says about Windows 8 since he has a vested interest in keeping easy distribution restricted to Steam. He will face no such competition on Linux.
    - commandar 14y ago
      Ubuntu Software Center isn't a direct competitor? If anything he risks footing a lot of the effort to get developers onto Linux (see: Valve openly talking about working with GPU manufacturers to improve the quality of Linux drivers) only to have it benefit people that choose to distribute outside of Steam.
      - icebraining 14y ago
        Ubuntu Software Center isn't a direct competitor? No, because it's DRM-less.
      - wtracy 14y ago
        I was going to reply that UBC doesn't support paid apps, but apparently now it does. That said, Valve appears to be going for a play based on being a cross-platform app store (Windows, OS X, Linux). It's not obvious to me that they can add much value that way (after you've gone to the work to implement support for three platforms, submitting to three app stores is not a lot of overhead) but we'll see.
        GlennS 14y ago
        A cross-platform store is something that appeals to the consumer rather than the game developer I would think?
        mattvanhorn 14y ago
        Definitely in my case - I play a lot of my Steam games on both platforms. Gaming PC at home, and Macbook Pro on the go.
  - _delirium 14y ago
    Possibly even good for consumers in that case. It's not really an ideal situation that software distribution would be a high-margin business in the first place. Typically you want distribution and infrastructure businesses to be competitive spaces with prices driven down towards costs, since they're just overhead from the perspective of getting stuff from sellers to buyers. For example, container shipping and grocery stores are not high-margin businesses. On the other hand, Microsoft's new 20-30% cut doesn't sound like very low-margin distribution infrastructure either...
    - Goronmon 14y ago
      It's not really an ideal situation that software distribution would be a high-margin business in the first place. Typically you want distribution and infrastructure businesses to be competitive spaces with prices driven down towards costs, since they're just overhead from the perspective of getting stuff from sellers to buyers. Does "low-margin" for software really make sense? These aren't physical goods that have a inherent value. The "cost" of any given piece of software is the price you are willing to pay the people building it.
      - _delirium 14y ago
        I was thinking just of margins on the distribution part, not the creation of software. Getting an app from the creator to the purchaser seems like a logistics/retail type business, like Wal-Mart is for physical goods, and high margins on that just means more overhead for everyone (except the operator of the distribution network).
  - learc83 14y ago
    He also said "I think we'll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market." He's clearly not just talking about the app store cutting into margins. Why else would OEMs exit the market if not because of usability issues/market collapse?
    - ralfn 14y ago
      The OEMS are in a tough place. They have to compete with actual HW innovation ( apple ) on one side, and with subsidized hardware on the other side ( amazon ). And if they succeed, all the margins go to Microsoft. At least, in the case of Android, they can add value, or extra revenue streams. In the case of linux, the open nature, would provide a competitive edge. Why would any OEM be interested in selling win8 devices? If microsoft is going the way of the console ( like apple and amazon are doing ), shouldnt microsoft be paying them instead of the other way around?
  - tytso 14y ago
    The reason why he thought it would be a business catastrophe is because Windows 8 is moving to be a closed ecosystem, instead of the traditional open ecosystem of the Wintel duopoly. (Which is what allowed Linux to flourish, and allowed an awful lot of innovation, including all of the Linux servers at Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc.)
  - astrodust 14y ago
    You know what keeps people selling software in a market plagued by piracy and a confusing array of operating system versions and hardware configurations? MARGINS. If Microsoft takes that away, they'll bail in the biggest possible way. Good luck getting Adobe to retail through your app store. They'll probably make a Linux port as a big fuck you to Ballmer.
malkia 14y ago
"Microsoft is charging between 20 to 30%" - I think that's too much, it must be much less than that, but I don't know for sure.
- malkia 14y ago
  Sorry. You guys are right. I was thinking of Xbox/360, not PC.
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  Reference: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/07/20/making-money-with-your-apps-through-the-windows-store.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/07/20/maki... Store fees are calculated on a per-transaction basis as well. These fees are based at 30% of the app price, until your app reaches $25,000 or equivalent of lifetime sales (aggregated across app sales and in-app purchases) when they change to 20% of the app price.
- trotsky 14y ago
  To lure in would-be developers, Microsoft is establishing an attractive revenue-split model that trumps what Apple delivers to its App Store and Mac App Store software partners. The Microsoft split starts at 70-30, between developers and Microsoft, respectively. This is the same ratio Apple offers, but once an app has proven its success by garnering $25,000 in sales, the split shifts further in the developer’s favor to 80-20. http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/12/windows-8-store-introduced http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/12/windows-8-store-intro...
- Ralz 14y ago
  Also I am 90% sure that this only applies to metro apps, non metro apps will be featured in the store but users will be directed to a website (chosen by the application developer) to purchase/download the product from.
  - throwaway64 14y ago
    the windows appstore is metro only
alt_ 14y ago
I would be more afraid of Xbox Live than the app store. Buying is just a one time deal. Achievements and other social features of Xbox Live are constant and, if shared with the large Xbox network, will be very desirable for consumers.
- mdanger 14y ago
  Steam supports achievements and some social features, although those aren't 1:1 with Live's social features.
- Splenivore 14y ago
  Games for Windows Live was not warmly received. It’s unlikely that this will be a killer feature.
  - ralfn 14y ago
    Microsoft does not allow competition on their OS this time around. So, Steam is no longer allowed to compete. If there are no alternative, people may still hate it, but it will still be the killer feature.
- ralfn 14y ago
  They are not afraid of losing the competition, they are afraid of not being allowed to compete. Steam cant be on Metro, and the x86/classic-desktop will likely end up, only in the high end of the market. Just like Apple, the common win8 consumer device will be in the 200-600 dollar range .. running on ARM, and completely block any competition from selling content. The privileges of backwards compatibility and "side-loading" will be available only on 800+ dollar devices. So, Steam on windows has no future.
james4k 14y ago
Steam's cut is 30%. However, for that 30% you get to update your game whenever you want, and virtually as often as you want. By that I mean they don't impose any direct limits on how often you update, but the general rule is no more than once a week aside from hotfixes and the like. I'm not aware of any digital marketplace that gives you this much control, especially as video game updates will often be hundreds of megabytes in size. Contrast this with Microsoft's Xbox Live Arcade, which charges you $40k for each additional update after the first free update. [1] Edit: It is worth nothing that if a user's game was activated with a retail key, Steam takes no cut. This means that you are effectively getting service for that user for free. You also get Steam Cloud, which allows you to store your users' configuration and saved game files to be accessed anywhere, their peer-to-peer networking API which provides NAT punching. Then there's matchmaking, stats/achievements, Steam Community (their social network), and several other "Steamworks" features. [2] Edit: Microtransactions is another big one, also known as in-app purchases. The online brochure for Steamworks is worth a read if you're interested in any of this: http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/index.php http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/index.php I haven't read a lot about Windows 8's app store, especially concerning Xbox Live, but Steam still has a lot to offer to developers. [1] http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/07/microsoft-comes-under-fire-for-five-figure-xbox-360-patch-fee/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/07/microsoft-comes-under-... [2] https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api
- shock3naw 14y ago
  Wow. $40,000 to push an update. Microsoft should put this into practice themselves and refund customers whenever Windows needs a patch.
  - adrianN 14y ago
    I'm pretty sure pushing an update to all Windows users costs way more in bandwidth alone.
    - shock3naw 14y ago
      Excellent point. I wonder what the actual cost is to push a Service Pack update to all users (those that update, at least).
Ralz 14y ago
Unless the video game developer is creating a game only for metro then the Windows Store will not cause any harm to Valve. Although it is possible to list a non metro application in the store (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/06/08/listing-your-desktop-app-in-the-store.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/06/08/list...) users will not be able to purchase or directly download those applications from the store and MS does not take a cut of non metro apps. You bring up a good point about the WinRT ARM devices. These devises are very closed off similar to the IPad, the only option for WinRT tablet users will be to go to the Windows Store but I don't think Valve even cares about this market too much ( I don't think you can download games directly to your iPhone from the steam app, can you?). Steam in my opinion is geared towards the PC desktop gamer not the (ARM) tablet* user, so Valve has nothing to worry about. *x86 tablets will most likely be able to download steam.
- prawks 14y ago
  > Steam in my opinion is geared towards the PC desktop gamer not the (ARM) tablet* user, so Valve has nothing to worry about. The problem is that the PC desktop-gamer market is shrinking, and may shrink further if a large population adopts WinRT tablets. I'm sure there are many edge-case customers out there that would rather pay <$500 for a PC in exchange for not having access to the few indie games they or their children purchased on Steam. While most avid PC gamers will keep with the desktop model, this sort of fork in the road for PC buyers is in essence also a narrowing of accessibility for future generations of would-be PC gamers.
mtgx 14y ago
I'm pretty sure Microsoft will end up doing to Steam what Apple tried to do with Amazon, and not allow them to sell games anywhere but in their store in the future.
- fsaintjacques 14y ago
  And I'm pretty sure the EU will come back again and say: "You remember the antitrust case with IE? You're doing it again."

commandar 14y ago

What are you basing this on? The quote in both the linked article and the AllThingsD piece indicates that he said "I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space." He isn't just talking about Valve.

bcbrown 14y ago
A business catastrophe, not a usability or market catastrophe. "I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people."
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- cooldeal 14y ago
  You're right, and I also wouldn't trust anything he says about Windows 8 since he has a vested interest in keeping easy distribution restricted to Steam. He will face no such competition on Linux.
  - commandar 14y ago
    Ubuntu Software Center isn't a direct competitor? If anything he risks footing a lot of the effort to get developers onto Linux (see: Valve openly talking about working with GPU manufacturers to improve the quality of Linux drivers) only to have it benefit people that choose to distribute outside of Steam.
    - icebraining 14y ago
      Ubuntu Software Center isn't a direct competitor? No, because it's DRM-less.
    - wtracy 14y ago
      I was going to reply that UBC doesn't support paid apps, but apparently now it does. That said, Valve appears to be going for a play based on being a cross-platform app store (Windows, OS X, Linux). It's not obvious to me that they can add much value that way (after you've gone to the work to implement support for three platforms, submitting to three app stores is not a lot of overhead) but we'll see.
      - GlennS 14y ago
        A cross-platform store is something that appeals to the consumer rather than the game developer I would think?
        mattvanhorn 14y ago
        Definitely in my case - I play a lot of my Steam games on both platforms. Gaming PC at home, and Macbook Pro on the go.
- _delirium 14y ago
  Possibly even good for consumers in that case. It's not really an ideal situation that software distribution would be a high-margin business in the first place. Typically you want distribution and infrastructure businesses to be competitive spaces with prices driven down towards costs, since they're just overhead from the perspective of getting stuff from sellers to buyers. For example, container shipping and grocery stores are not high-margin businesses. On the other hand, Microsoft's new 20-30% cut doesn't sound like very low-margin distribution infrastructure either...
  - Goronmon 14y ago
    It's not really an ideal situation that software distribution would be a high-margin business in the first place. Typically you want distribution and infrastructure businesses to be competitive spaces with prices driven down towards costs, since they're just overhead from the perspective of getting stuff from sellers to buyers. Does "low-margin" for software really make sense? These aren't physical goods that have a inherent value. The "cost" of any given piece of software is the price you are willing to pay the people building it.
    - _delirium 14y ago
      I was thinking just of margins on the distribution part, not the creation of software. Getting an app from the creator to the purchaser seems like a logistics/retail type business, like Wal-Mart is for physical goods, and high margins on that just means more overhead for everyone (except the operator of the distribution network).
- learc83 14y ago
  He also said "I think we'll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market." He's clearly not just talking about the app store cutting into margins. Why else would OEMs exit the market if not because of usability issues/market collapse?
  - ralfn 14y ago
    The OEMS are in a tough place. They have to compete with actual HW innovation ( apple ) on one side, and with subsidized hardware on the other side ( amazon ). And if they succeed, all the margins go to Microsoft. At least, in the case of Android, they can add value, or extra revenue streams. In the case of linux, the open nature, would provide a competitive edge. Why would any OEM be interested in selling win8 devices? If microsoft is going the way of the console ( like apple and amazon are doing ), shouldnt microsoft be paying them instead of the other way around?
- tytso 14y ago
  The reason why he thought it would be a business catastrophe is because Windows 8 is moving to be a closed ecosystem, instead of the traditional open ecosystem of the Wintel duopoly. (Which is what allowed Linux to flourish, and allowed an awful lot of innovation, including all of the Linux servers at Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc.)
- astrodust 14y ago
  You know what keeps people selling software in a market plagued by piracy and a confusing array of operating system versions and hardware configurations? MARGINS. If Microsoft takes that away, they'll bail in the biggest possible way. Good luck getting Adobe to retail through your app store. They'll probably make a Linux port as a big fuck you to Ballmer.

malkia 14y ago

"Microsoft is charging between 20 to 30%" - I think that's too much, it must be much less than that, but I don't know for sure.

malkia 14y ago
Sorry. You guys are right. I was thinking of Xbox/360, not PC.
recoiledsnake 14y ago
Reference: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/07/20/making-money-with-your-apps-through-the-windows-store.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/07/20/maki... Store fees are calculated on a per-transaction basis as well. These fees are based at 30% of the app price, until your app reaches $25,000 or equivalent of lifetime sales (aggregated across app sales and in-app purchases) when they change to 20% of the app price.
trotsky 14y ago
To lure in would-be developers, Microsoft is establishing an attractive revenue-split model that trumps what Apple delivers to its App Store and Mac App Store software partners. The Microsoft split starts at 70-30, between developers and Microsoft, respectively. This is the same ratio Apple offers, but once an app has proven its success by garnering $25,000 in sales, the split shifts further in the developer’s favor to 80-20. http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/12/windows-8-store-introduced http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/12/windows-8-store-intro...
Ralz 14y ago
Also I am 90% sure that this only applies to metro apps, non metro apps will be featured in the store but users will be directed to a website (chosen by the application developer) to purchase/download the product from.
- throwaway64 14y ago
  the windows appstore is metro only

alt_ 14y ago

I would be more afraid of Xbox Live than the app store. Buying is just a one time deal. Achievements and other social features of Xbox Live are constant and, if shared with the large Xbox network, will be very desirable for consumers.

mdanger 14y ago
Steam supports achievements and some social features, although those aren't 1:1 with Live's social features.
Splenivore 14y ago
Games for Windows Live was not warmly received. It’s unlikely that this will be a killer feature.
- ralfn 14y ago
  Microsoft does not allow competition on their OS this time around. So, Steam is no longer allowed to compete. If there are no alternative, people may still hate it, but it will still be the killer feature.
ralfn 14y ago
They are not afraid of losing the competition, they are afraid of not being allowed to compete. Steam cant be on Metro, and the x86/classic-desktop will likely end up, only in the high end of the market. Just like Apple, the common win8 consumer device will be in the 200-600 dollar range .. running on ARM, and completely block any competition from selling content. The privileges of backwards compatibility and "side-loading" will be available only on 800+ dollar devices. So, Steam on windows has no future.

james4k 14y ago

Steam's cut is 30%. However, for that 30% you get to update your game whenever you want, and virtually as often as you want. By that I mean they don't impose any direct limits on how often you update, but the general rule is no more than once a week aside from hotfixes and the like. I'm not aware of any digital marketplace that gives you this much control, especially as video game updates will often be hundreds of megabytes in size. Contrast this with Microsoft's Xbox Live Arcade, which charges you $40k for each additional update after the first free update. [1] Edit: It is worth nothing that if a user's game was activated with a retail key, Steam takes no cut. This means that you are effectively getting service for that user for free. You also get Steam Cloud, which allows you to store your users' configuration and saved game files to be accessed anywhere, their peer-to-peer networking API which provides NAT punching. Then there's matchmaking, stats/achievements, Steam Community (their social network), and several other "Steamworks" features. [2] Edit: Microtransactions is another big one, also known as in-app purchases. The online brochure for Steamworks is worth a read if you're interested in any of this: http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/index.php http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/index.php I haven't read a lot about Windows 8's app store, especially concerning Xbox Live, but Steam still has a lot to offer to developers. [1] http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/07/microsoft-comes-under-fire-for-five-figure-xbox-360-patch-fee/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/07/microsoft-comes-under-... [2] https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api

shock3naw 14y ago
Wow. $40,000 to push an update. Microsoft should put this into practice themselves and refund customers whenever Windows needs a patch.
- adrianN 14y ago
  I'm pretty sure pushing an update to all Windows users costs way more in bandwidth alone.
  - shock3naw 14y ago
    Excellent point. I wonder what the actual cost is to push a Service Pack update to all users (those that update, at least).

Ralz 14y ago

Unless the video game developer is creating a game only for metro then the Windows Store will not cause any harm to Valve. Although it is possible to list a non metro application in the store (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/06/08/listing-your-desktop-app-in-the-store.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/06/08/list...) users will not be able to purchase or directly download those applications from the store and MS does not take a cut of non metro apps. You bring up a good point about the WinRT ARM devices. These devises are very closed off similar to the IPad, the only option for WinRT tablet users will be to go to the Windows Store but I don't think Valve even cares about this market too much ( I don't think you can download games directly to your iPhone from the steam app, can you?). Steam in my opinion is geared towards the PC desktop gamer not the (ARM) tablet* user, so Valve has nothing to worry about. *x86 tablets will most likely be able to download steam.

prawks 14y ago
> Steam in my opinion is geared towards the PC desktop gamer not the (ARM) tablet* user, so Valve has nothing to worry about. The problem is that the PC desktop-gamer market is shrinking, and may shrink further if a large population adopts WinRT tablets. I'm sure there are many edge-case customers out there that would rather pay <$500 for a PC in exchange for not having access to the few indie games they or their children purchased on Steam. While most avid PC gamers will keep with the desktop model, this sort of fork in the road for PC buyers is in essence also a narrowing of accessibility for future generations of would-be PC gamers.

mtgx 14y ago

I'm pretty sure Microsoft will end up doing to Steam what Apple tried to do with Amazon, and not allow them to sell games anywhere but in their store in the future.

fsaintjacques 14y ago
And I'm pretty sure the EU will come back again and say: "You remember the antitrust case with IE? You're doing it again."