4 ms·

Not a lawyer, but it would seem that Elon and Doge employees are exposing themselves up to significant legal liability here. Maybe Trump pardons Elon (if they d

Not a lawyer, but it would seem that Elon and Doge employees are exposing themselves up to significant legal liability here. Maybe Trump pardons Elon (if they don't fall out before then), but is he going to pardon everyone who has a hand in this? And it seems likely that state crimes are being committed as well. The president may have broad immunity, but Elon does not.

jordanpg 2y ago
Also, pardons are for criminal liability. They do not absolve you of civil liability (i.e., they can still be sued).
freeone3000 2y ago
He does if the President says he does! That’s the beauty of a pardon. There’s not a limit, as many people can be pardoned as Mr. Trump wants. And you can’t arrest the president because he’s immune from prosecution for official acts: pardoning is an enumerated constitutional power! So what’s left is impeachment for the president and congress does not want to do this. And none of that will fall on Musk or DOGE. The government has made itself unable to prevent this.
- thesuperbigfrog 2y ago
  So is there a legal way to stop what is happening? If the current legal framework were software, I would say that this is an exploit chain that gives root access to the government / country. If there is not legal way to stop it, what is the alternative?
  - freeone3000 2y ago
    Ideally, not electing a person who would abuse those powers. Secondarily, the “immune from prosecution” was a supreme court decision as a result of the events of January 6th, so the 2024 election was a pretty important one. The current legal method available now is an impeachment process, iterated until we have a president who values societal norms and stable government. (Depending on how you feel about JD Vance not also pulling this shit.) Currently 28 of the 51 republicans in the Senate are up for re-election in November of 2026; this is a possibility for a makeup change, but a remote one. It appears a large enough percentage of americans want this that there’s no real possibility of changing course at this point; even the assassination attempts have failed. Understand that over 40% of americans do want what is happening now, as backed up by current polling. Never comply in advance, do not follow illegal orders, and make good friends with your neighbours.
    - prawn 2y ago
      I think one aspect not covered in your comment is whether or not all voters are getting an accurate representation of what's happening. If what they read/see just confirms their favoured view, it might be hard to say with confidence that any portion of the population do want what is actually happening at any given point. Or separately, whether they feel very strongly about some things that are happening, enough to overlook other things that they'd likely disagree with but don't understand or care about as much.
  - Filligree 2y ago
    The legal way to stop it is impeachment. Full stop. Nothing else can do with a president that’s gone this far rogue; the courts can at best slow him down, but at worst nothing stops Trump from ignoring them.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > That’s the beauty of a pardon. There’s not a limit, as many people can be pardoned as Mr. Trump wants. It's really quite an odd power; very few developed democracies have a _personal_ pardon power today (some kind of vaguely pretend to; in the UK pardons are done by the monarch _at the direction of the government_, say). I think the US just stuck it on the presidency because at the time of independence the president was kind of a stand-in for the monarch, and the British monarchy had it at the time. The US then failed to get rid of it when everyone else did, instead relying on norms and basically on everyone behaving themselves to regulate it.
- timbit42 2y ago
  I expect Trump to ignore Biden's presidential pardons in the near future.
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    Same. The rationale for doing so doesn't have to stand up, it just needs to be a soundbite that is easy for MAGA supporters to remember and repeat.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  You missed state-level action. The president cannot intervene in such matters (at least not in any legal, direct sense).
Naklin 2y ago
I mean, with the extreme politicization of DOJ and FBI already under way by Trump and his cronies, and the dismantling of safeguards like inspector generals there's literally no chance that these people get indicted or even investigated under this administration. > is he going to pardon everyone who has a hand in this? How can anyone have any doubts after the jan 6 pardons?
- skepticATX 2y ago
  Clearly it's not happening tomorrow, but eventually Democrats (and maybe even Republicans who want to uphold the constitution!) will be in the majority.
  - apothegm 2y ago
    That makes the big assumption that we’ll ever have free and fair elections here again.
    - jordanpg 2y ago
      Yep. For all of these sensational headlines we're seeing recently, we need to keep in mind that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg of what's happening, and that we are seeing exactly nothing of what's happening behind closed doors. In fact, the fiascoes may be specifically intended to keep the public's eye off the ball. I would be very surprised to learn that there are not teams working in every state to weaken the integrity of the electoral process.
    - throw16180339 2y ago
      Demographic changes also make it much harder for the Democrats to win in the future (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/democrats-future-crisis-the-biggest-states-that-back-them-are-shrinking https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/democrats-future-crisi...).
      - klooney 2y ago
        We need to shut down immigration so we don't create an emerging Republican majority, or something. Didn't someone write a book about this
dboreham 2y ago
Great comment in 2021 but today we know laws are not enforced against powerful people and their lackeys.
TrackerFF 2y ago
So here's what we've seen: - Acting Trump lackeys will simply ignore any court orders that block the EOs that Trump has issued. - Congress isn't doing anything. - In all likelihood, DOJ isn't going to enforce anything, so long they're aligned with Trump. - Should some lowly law-enforcement officer decide to play hero, and arrest anyone that any federal judge issues an arrest on, I'd fully expect them to be removed, or meet resistance from any bodyguards/protection that the DOGE boys will receive. - Even if anyone decides to pursue, Trump can issue pre-emptive pardons for all past federal crimes. It is sort of a crisis, because the few checks and balances that were put in place, simply aren't functioning.

jordanpg 2y ago

Also, pardons are for criminal liability. They do not absolve you of civil liability (i.e., they can still be sued).

freeone3000 2y ago

He does if the President says he does! That’s the beauty of a pardon. There’s not a limit, as many people can be pardoned as Mr. Trump wants. And you can’t arrest the president because he’s immune from prosecution for official acts: pardoning is an enumerated constitutional power! So what’s left is impeachment for the president and congress does not want to do this. And none of that will fall on Musk or DOGE. The government has made itself unable to prevent this.

thesuperbigfrog 2y ago
So is there a legal way to stop what is happening? If the current legal framework were software, I would say that this is an exploit chain that gives root access to the government / country. If there is not legal way to stop it, what is the alternative?
- freeone3000 2y ago
  Ideally, not electing a person who would abuse those powers. Secondarily, the “immune from prosecution” was a supreme court decision as a result of the events of January 6th, so the 2024 election was a pretty important one. The current legal method available now is an impeachment process, iterated until we have a president who values societal norms and stable government. (Depending on how you feel about JD Vance not also pulling this shit.) Currently 28 of the 51 republicans in the Senate are up for re-election in November of 2026; this is a possibility for a makeup change, but a remote one. It appears a large enough percentage of americans want this that there’s no real possibility of changing course at this point; even the assassination attempts have failed. Understand that over 40% of americans do want what is happening now, as backed up by current polling. Never comply in advance, do not follow illegal orders, and make good friends with your neighbours.
  - prawn 2y ago
    I think one aspect not covered in your comment is whether or not all voters are getting an accurate representation of what's happening. If what they read/see just confirms their favoured view, it might be hard to say with confidence that any portion of the population do want what is actually happening at any given point. Or separately, whether they feel very strongly about some things that are happening, enough to overlook other things that they'd likely disagree with but don't understand or care about as much.
- Filligree 2y ago
  The legal way to stop it is impeachment. Full stop. Nothing else can do with a president that’s gone this far rogue; the courts can at best slow him down, but at worst nothing stops Trump from ignoring them.
rsynnott 2y ago
> That’s the beauty of a pardon. There’s not a limit, as many people can be pardoned as Mr. Trump wants. It's really quite an odd power; very few developed democracies have a _personal_ pardon power today (some kind of vaguely pretend to; in the UK pardons are done by the monarch _at the direction of the government_, say). I think the US just stuck it on the presidency because at the time of independence the president was kind of a stand-in for the monarch, and the British monarchy had it at the time. The US then failed to get rid of it when everyone else did, instead relying on norms and basically on everyone behaving themselves to regulate it.
timbit42 2y ago
I expect Trump to ignore Biden's presidential pardons in the near future.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  Same. The rationale for doing so doesn't have to stand up, it just needs to be a soundbite that is easy for MAGA supporters to remember and repeat.
PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
You missed state-level action. The president cannot intervene in such matters (at least not in any legal, direct sense).

Naklin 2y ago

I mean, with the extreme politicization of DOJ and FBI already under way by Trump and his cronies, and the dismantling of safeguards like inspector generals there's literally no chance that these people get indicted or even investigated under this administration. > is he going to pardon everyone who has a hand in this? How can anyone have any doubts after the jan 6 pardons?

skepticATX 2y ago
Clearly it's not happening tomorrow, but eventually Democrats (and maybe even Republicans who want to uphold the constitution!) will be in the majority.
- apothegm 2y ago
  That makes the big assumption that we’ll ever have free and fair elections here again.
  - jordanpg 2y ago
    Yep. For all of these sensational headlines we're seeing recently, we need to keep in mind that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg of what's happening, and that we are seeing exactly nothing of what's happening behind closed doors. In fact, the fiascoes may be specifically intended to keep the public's eye off the ball. I would be very surprised to learn that there are not teams working in every state to weaken the integrity of the electoral process.
  - throw16180339 2y ago
    Demographic changes also make it much harder for the Democrats to win in the future (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/democrats-future-crisis-the-biggest-states-that-back-them-are-shrinking https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/democrats-future-crisi...).
    - klooney 2y ago
      We need to shut down immigration so we don't create an emerging Republican majority, or something. Didn't someone write a book about this

dboreham 2y ago

Great comment in 2021 but today we know laws are not enforced against powerful people and their lackeys.

TrackerFF 2y ago

So here's what we've seen: - Acting Trump lackeys will simply ignore any court orders that block the EOs that Trump has issued. - Congress isn't doing anything. - In all likelihood, DOJ isn't going to enforce anything, so long they're aligned with Trump. - Should some lowly law-enforcement officer decide to play hero, and arrest anyone that any federal judge issues an arrest on, I'd fully expect them to be removed, or meet resistance from any bodyguards/protection that the DOGE boys will receive. - Even if anyone decides to pursue, Trump can issue pre-emptive pardons for all past federal crimes. It is sort of a crisis, because the few checks and balances that were put in place, simply aren't functioning.