3 ms·

None of those technologies: newly developed radar, or even more exotic night vision at that time, would have allowed them to bomb ships at night over lake Ladog

by rdtsc 2y ago

None of those technologies: newly developed radar, or even more exotic night vision at that time, would have allowed them to bomb ships at night over lake Ladoga. Dive bombing would have worked but not at night.

ceejayoz 2y ago
Radar's useful for finding ships. Radio's useful for telling the planes where those ships are. Even before radar, night missions were a thing (even in pre-radar WWI, a little). It's rarely completely dark out. And as a bonus, supplies have to be loaded and unloaded, which tends to take time. The day comes eventually, and the loading points on the other side of the lake would've been well within range.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  The "state of the art" for attacking ships at night with aircraft at the time consisted of a radar equipped medium or heavy bomber that could get you "close enough" and then a giant light you'd flick on for your attack run, not a capability the german air forced was well practiced at. What you are proposing is nonsensical and not an effective use of resources, hence why they didn't do it. It also didn't matter much because the soviets didn't do a ton of shipping over the lake by boat.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > What you are proposing is nonsensical and not an effective use of resources, hence why they didn't do it. Are we talking about the "flying night missions" bit - which is a historical fact (for example, here's an AA battery in Leningrad at night: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anti_aircraft_Leningrad_1941.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anti_aircraft_Lening...) - or the "supply an encircled city with millions of inhabitants via a 30 mile boat trip across a lake straight into enemy territory" bit?
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      >Are we talking about the "flying night missions" bit - which is a historical fact (for example, here's an AA battery in Leningrad at night: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anti_aircraft_Lening https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anti_aircraft_Lening...) - or the "supply an encircled city with millions of inhabitants via a 30 mile boat trip across a lake straight into enemy territory" bit? Man those goal posts move quick. The germans didn't try to shoot at small mobile targets on the ground/sea (i.e. not another airplane that has a giant sky behind it it stands in contrast from, because I'm pretty sure that's the next place these goal posts are moving) from the air at night. They didn't have the tech or the training fleshed out to make that effective, especially when the siege of Leningrad was taking place. End of story. There might be an exception or two but it generally wasn't done.
- rdtsc 2y ago
  Even with modern instances of those technologies, finding and bombing a moving boat that wants to hide at night on water is not easy, but we're talking about the start of WWII, no smart bombs or other things like that. Some years this might have been tricky but nowadays it's possible to fire up any somewhat realistic simulator and get on on any WWII era plane, say Ju-88 or Ju-87 and try hitting a supply boat in the middle of the night with a bomb. > night missions were a thing (even in pre-radar WWI, a little). Yes, carpet bombing cities and industrial complexes, not pin point targets on water!
rtkwe 2y ago
From which port? to which port? with what ships? The Germans owned the bank of the river between the lake and Leningrad until the river turned North West. There doesn't appear to be much of a port on the parts of the lake still controlled by the Soviets during the siege either.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  Also they did provide supplies over the lake but there were limited boats and the lake was shared with the Finns who had their own tiny little navy operating in the lake (tonnage was limited by treaty and the Finns could only bring in new boats that were small enough to be transported over land). During the winter the lake froze and supplies came in over the frozen lake but there were ~3 million people in Leningrad when the siege was established and feeding that many people over improvised routes is... difficult to say the least even if the only thing being transported was food and didn't include the large amount of military supplies needed to continue to repel the besiegers.

by rdtsc 2y ago

ceejayoz 2y ago

Radar's useful for finding ships. Radio's useful for telling the planes where those ships are. Even before radar, night missions were a thing (even in pre-radar WWI, a little). It's rarely completely dark out. And as a bonus, supplies have to be loaded and unloaded, which tends to take time. The day comes eventually, and the loading points on the other side of the lake would've been well within range.

potato3732842 2y ago
The "state of the art" for attacking ships at night with aircraft at the time consisted of a radar equipped medium or heavy bomber that could get you "close enough" and then a giant light you'd flick on for your attack run, not a capability the german air forced was well practiced at. What you are proposing is nonsensical and not an effective use of resources, hence why they didn't do it. It also didn't matter much because the soviets didn't do a ton of shipping over the lake by boat.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > What you are proposing is nonsensical and not an effective use of resources, hence why they didn't do it. Are we talking about the "flying night missions" bit - which is a historical fact (for example, here's an AA battery in Leningrad at night: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anti_aircraft_Leningrad_1941.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anti_aircraft_Lening...) - or the "supply an encircled city with millions of inhabitants via a 30 mile boat trip across a lake straight into enemy territory" bit?
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    >Are we talking about the "flying night missions" bit - which is a historical fact (for example, here's an AA battery in Leningrad at night: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anti_aircraft_Lening https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anti_aircraft_Lening...) - or the "supply an encircled city with millions of inhabitants via a 30 mile boat trip across a lake straight into enemy territory" bit? Man those goal posts move quick. The germans didn't try to shoot at small mobile targets on the ground/sea (i.e. not another airplane that has a giant sky behind it it stands in contrast from, because I'm pretty sure that's the next place these goal posts are moving) from the air at night. They didn't have the tech or the training fleshed out to make that effective, especially when the siege of Leningrad was taking place. End of story. There might be an exception or two but it generally wasn't done.
rdtsc 2y ago
Even with modern instances of those technologies, finding and bombing a moving boat that wants to hide at night on water is not easy, but we're talking about the start of WWII, no smart bombs or other things like that. Some years this might have been tricky but nowadays it's possible to fire up any somewhat realistic simulator and get on on any WWII era plane, say Ju-88 or Ju-87 and try hitting a supply boat in the middle of the night with a bomb. > night missions were a thing (even in pre-radar WWI, a little). Yes, carpet bombing cities and industrial complexes, not pin point targets on water!

rtkwe 2y ago

From which port? to which port? with what ships? The Germans owned the bank of the river between the lake and Leningrad until the river turned North West. There doesn't appear to be much of a port on the parts of the lake still controlled by the Soviets during the siege either.

rtkwe 2y ago
Also they did provide supplies over the lake but there were limited boats and the lake was shared with the Finns who had their own tiny little navy operating in the lake (tonnage was limited by treaty and the Finns could only bring in new boats that were small enough to be transported over land). During the winter the lake froze and supplies came in over the frozen lake but there were ~3 million people in Leningrad when the siege was established and feeding that many people over improvised routes is... difficult to say the least even if the only thing being transported was food and didn't include the large amount of military supplies needed to continue to repel the besiegers.