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Many feel that the status quo represents wolves looting the taxpayers. 3T in deficit spending is a bit much. Where was the "hypervigilance" before this? There w

Many feel that the status quo represents wolves looting the taxpayers. 3T in deficit spending is a bit much. Where was the "hypervigilance" before this? There was no public spotlight on the engineers appointed to manage these systems previously. If we are to be balanced in our consideration here, it would be reasonable to consider the possibility that the established media voices may be objecting to an entrenched network of corruption unwinding. These are the stated reasons for the audit. It is worth at least considering them at face value. Reasonable people should be able to debate these things without resorting to reducto-ad-hitlerum. Given that none of the coverage presented by the sources has even considered the opposition's argument, it isn't unreasonable to characterize it as unbalanced partisanship. Yes, a young engineer has access to this data. Previously an unnamed engineer appointed by an unelected bureaucrat also had access. Yet the partisans were not invoking crass analogies at that time. Nobody was raising the alarms about IRS agents or Treasury employees having access to the same data. Regardless of where we are on the partisan spectrum, we should be able to recognize this as hypocritical and more than a little bit suspicious. https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/1886301159398535632 https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/1886301159398535632 https://xcancel.com/ThomasEWoods/status/1886078877363327337 https://xcancel.com/ThomasEWoods/status/1886078877363327337

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Many feel that the status quo represents wolves looting the taxpayers Many feel lots of things. If this is acceptable then the next Democrat who wins Presidency should go in and delete federal leases they don't like. (More realistically: delete all the student loan records. I don't even think those touch state laws, so you'd be fully cleared with a pardon.) > it would be reasonable to consider the possibility that the established media voices may be objecting to an entrenched network of corruption unwinding Not really. Or maybe we see the problem with having a rando with read-write access to sensitive public infrastructure. > Reasonable people should be able to debate these things without resorting to reducto-ad-hitlerum You're the only one bringing up Hitler in this thread. > none of the coverage presented by the sources has even considered the opposition's argument Not everything needs to be both sided. This isn't a partisan issue. It's not even binary--plenty of people agree with DOGE having some access but not this. > Previously an unnamed engineer appointed by an unelected bureaucrat also had access An unnamed engineer hired by an unelected bureucrat. (After being screened by another group. Subject to conflicts and financial-disclosure rules to an agency.) Such bureaucrat eventually reporting to someone appointed by an elected and confirmed by other electeds. The people in this chain who report to Bessent did not clear this access. Based on Bessent's statements, he didn't clear read-write access. Legally speaking, this man breached our payments system.
- palmfacehn 2y ago
  In which a commentator references the Reichstag fire. Perhaps I am misreading this uncharitably? There has been quite a bit of this lately. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42929327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42929327 EDIT: "Bessent tells lawmakers Musk’s DOGE does not control Treasury payments system " >POLITICO reported Saturday that Bessent signed off on a plan to give “read-only” access to the payment system to a team led by Tom Krause, the CEO of Cloud Software Group, who is now working for the Treasury Department and serves as a liaison to Musk’s DOGE group that operates out of the United States Digital Service. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/03/bessent-musk-doge-treasury-payments-00202278 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/03/bessent-musk-doge-t...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    If your argument requires picking apart the weakest ones made by someone else and then using that as evidence for your own, it isn't a strong argument. EDIT: Bessent's statement about Krause predates this story about Elez. Bessent doesn't know what he's talking about or Elez is acting illegally. Which one do you think Bessent is going to go with?
    - palmfacehn 2y ago
      If there is corruption, I hope they can root it out and expose it publicly. I'm also cautiously optimistic that the 3T deficit may be tackled. I've never seen a president come out so strong in his first weeks on these issues. When Trump campaigned on these issues, I assumed it was just more empty campaign promises. If Elon's allegations that media groups like Vox and others have been eating public funds via USAID are true, I doubt there will be much coverage here at HN. We will see. We're at the point where we must agree to disagree. I've stated that I believe the allegations should be considered at face value, if we are to continue in good faith.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > I hope they can root it out and expose it publicly I do too. We also know, now, that it will be almost impossible to prove the evidence hasn't been tampered with. Holding anyone accountable is going to be challenging. > cautiously optimistic that the 3T deficit may be tackled I'm not. The deficit has been blown out by every President since Clinton. We haven't even started counting the bills from the trade war [1]. (And we're still in the kiddie pool with Canada.) > If Elon's allegations that media groups like Vox and others have been eating public funds via USAID are true That will be something he could have learned through less-extreme means. For what it's worth, I don't think Elez was meant to have write access. I don't think he's changed any data. It was a fuckup. And fuckups have costs. Musk will need to settle political battles. (Trump making a public staement about Musk's power is telling [2].) Elez is fucked, legally, but let's be honest, nobody cares about him. The litigation being brought against DOGE's actions just got evidence administrative procedure isn't being followed; a likely and terrible endgame there is union and NGO lawyers getting de facto judgement power. This news should be broadly infuriating. If you hate DOGE, it's an illegal expansion of power. If you love DOGE, it's undermining its credibility. (Cleverly, Musk had Elez put his fingerprints down and Trump, in turn, can throw Musk under the bus when the next fuckup hurts someone.) [1] https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/03/trump-trade-farm-aid-bailout-00002333 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/03/trump-trade-farm-ai... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-03/trump-says-musk-sees-treasury-payments-but-can-t-stop-them-alone https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-03/trump-say...
anigbrowl 2y ago
These are the stated reasons for the audit. It is worth at least considering them at face value. No it isn't. It's not an audit, it's a hostile takeover. An actual audit of the federal government would have involved standards, qualifications, security clearances, and other institutional infrastructure, and stringent controls to avoid conflicts of interest. If you don't see a conflict of interest with the richest man in the world sending a team of kids to take over the main systems in the treasury and personnel departments of the federal government then I envy your child-like innocence. Reasonable people should be able to debate these things without resorting to reducto-ad-hitlerum. There was a clear roadmap published by the Heritage Foundation before the election detailing plans for a hostile takeover, and events so far are wholly consistent with that - unsurprising, since one of its lead authors is nominated for a cabinet position. Also, this is all happening under the aegis of a guy who marked inauguration day by throw Roman salutes to the crowd, a gesture beloved by neo-nazis. At least one of this young engineers barging his way into secure high value systems is a big fan of neo-nazi Nick Fuentes, and I see no reason to think that having neo-nazis in charge is likely to end better than it did with the original version.
- heartbreak 2y ago
  An actual audit would have involved actual auditors. A 25yo 3rd year at PwC would be preferable.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Many feel that the status quo represents wolves looting the taxpayers Many feel lots of things. If this is acceptable then the next Democrat who wins Presidency should go in and delete federal leases they don't like. (More realistically: delete all the student loan records. I don't even think those touch state laws, so you'd be fully cleared with a pardon.) > it would be reasonable to consider the possibility that the established media voices may be objecting to an entrenched network of corruption unwinding Not really. Or maybe we see the problem with having a rando with read-write access to sensitive public infrastructure. > Reasonable people should be able to debate these things without resorting to reducto-ad-hitlerum You're the only one bringing up Hitler in this thread. > none of the coverage presented by the sources has even considered the opposition's argument Not everything needs to be both sided. This isn't a partisan issue. It's not even binary--plenty of people agree with DOGE having some access but not this. > Previously an unnamed engineer appointed by an unelected bureaucrat also had access An unnamed engineer hired by an unelected bureucrat. (After being screened by another group. Subject to conflicts and financial-disclosure rules to an agency.) Such bureaucrat eventually reporting to someone appointed by an elected and confirmed by other electeds. The people in this chain who report to Bessent did not clear this access. Based on Bessent's statements, he didn't clear read-write access. Legally speaking, this man breached our payments system.

palmfacehn 2y ago
In which a commentator references the Reichstag fire. Perhaps I am misreading this uncharitably? There has been quite a bit of this lately. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42929327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42929327 EDIT: "Bessent tells lawmakers Musk’s DOGE does not control Treasury payments system " >POLITICO reported Saturday that Bessent signed off on a plan to give “read-only” access to the payment system to a team led by Tom Krause, the CEO of Cloud Software Group, who is now working for the Treasury Department and serves as a liaison to Musk’s DOGE group that operates out of the United States Digital Service. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/03/bessent-musk-doge-treasury-payments-00202278 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/03/bessent-musk-doge-t...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  If your argument requires picking apart the weakest ones made by someone else and then using that as evidence for your own, it isn't a strong argument. EDIT: Bessent's statement about Krause predates this story about Elez. Bessent doesn't know what he's talking about or Elez is acting illegally. Which one do you think Bessent is going to go with?
  - palmfacehn 2y ago
    If there is corruption, I hope they can root it out and expose it publicly. I'm also cautiously optimistic that the 3T deficit may be tackled. I've never seen a president come out so strong in his first weeks on these issues. When Trump campaigned on these issues, I assumed it was just more empty campaign promises. If Elon's allegations that media groups like Vox and others have been eating public funds via USAID are true, I doubt there will be much coverage here at HN. We will see. We're at the point where we must agree to disagree. I've stated that I believe the allegations should be considered at face value, if we are to continue in good faith.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > I hope they can root it out and expose it publicly I do too. We also know, now, that it will be almost impossible to prove the evidence hasn't been tampered with. Holding anyone accountable is going to be challenging. > cautiously optimistic that the 3T deficit may be tackled I'm not. The deficit has been blown out by every President since Clinton. We haven't even started counting the bills from the trade war [1]. (And we're still in the kiddie pool with Canada.) > If Elon's allegations that media groups like Vox and others have been eating public funds via USAID are true That will be something he could have learned through less-extreme means. For what it's worth, I don't think Elez was meant to have write access. I don't think he's changed any data. It was a fuckup. And fuckups have costs. Musk will need to settle political battles. (Trump making a public staement about Musk's power is telling [2].) Elez is fucked, legally, but let's be honest, nobody cares about him. The litigation being brought against DOGE's actions just got evidence administrative procedure isn't being followed; a likely and terrible endgame there is union and NGO lawyers getting de facto judgement power. This news should be broadly infuriating. If you hate DOGE, it's an illegal expansion of power. If you love DOGE, it's undermining its credibility. (Cleverly, Musk had Elez put his fingerprints down and Trump, in turn, can throw Musk under the bus when the next fuckup hurts someone.) [1] https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/03/trump-trade-farm-aid-bailout-00002333 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/03/trump-trade-farm-ai... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-03/trump-says-musk-sees-treasury-payments-but-can-t-stop-them-alone https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-03/trump-say...

anigbrowl 2y ago

These are the stated reasons for the audit. It is worth at least considering them at face value. No it isn't. It's not an audit, it's a hostile takeover. An actual audit of the federal government would have involved standards, qualifications, security clearances, and other institutional infrastructure, and stringent controls to avoid conflicts of interest. If you don't see a conflict of interest with the richest man in the world sending a team of kids to take over the main systems in the treasury and personnel departments of the federal government then I envy your child-like innocence. Reasonable people should be able to debate these things without resorting to reducto-ad-hitlerum. There was a clear roadmap published by the Heritage Foundation before the election detailing plans for a hostile takeover, and events so far are wholly consistent with that - unsurprising, since one of its lead authors is nominated for a cabinet position. Also, this is all happening under the aegis of a guy who marked inauguration day by throw Roman salutes to the crowd, a gesture beloved by neo-nazis. At least one of this young engineers barging his way into secure high value systems is a big fan of neo-nazi Nick Fuentes, and I see no reason to think that having neo-nazis in charge is likely to end better than it did with the original version.

heartbreak 2y ago
An actual audit would have involved actual auditors. A 25yo 3rd year at PwC would be preferable.