7 ms·

Would you consider for example Firefox' completely-local translations a success? Directly funded by Horizon, made by a consortium of 4 European universities, n

Would you consider for example Firefox' completely-local translations a success? Directly funded by Horizon, made by a consortium of 4 European universities, now a part of Firefox?

murderfs 2y ago
They paid three million euros to integrate existing open source software into Firefox?!
- bayindirh 2y ago
  No, EU funded Bergamot and HPLT projects. Integration came much later, but again as a part of Bergamot project. [0]: https://browser.mt/ https://browser.mt/ [1]: https://hplt-project.org/ https://hplt-project.org/ [2]: https://github.com/mozilla/translations?tab=readme-ov-file#acknowledgements https://github.com/mozilla/translations?tab=readme-ov-file#a...
  - shinryuu 2y ago
    Very grateful for those translations. Use them a lot!
closewith 2y ago
7 languages and a feature nobody to a rounding error uses? No, I don't consider that to be a research, economic, or technical success. Honestly, I'm not sure if you posted this is support of Horizon or against? The Horizon budget for 2021-2027 is €95.5 billion or ~€15 billion per annum. If a headline "success" is an unfinished implementation of translation in Firefox of a translation engine (Marian) built by the Microsoft Translator team, then it's safe to say Horizon is an unqualified failure.
- Vinnl 2y ago
  I don't have the numbers at hand or know if they're even public somewhere, but telemetry shows that Firefox Translations is used a lot. Definitely on the list of successful new Firefox features. (I'm a Mozilla employee, but I have not worked on Firefox Translations.)
  - closewith 2y ago
    What is a lot? Before integration, it had ~490 users as an extension, vs ~800,000 for To Google Translate, the number one option. Offline translation has to be manually enabled per language in Settings. Frankly I don't believe there's any meaningful usage until I see the numbers.
    - e2le 2y ago
      >enabled per language in Settings. Do they? I tried opening a French government site[1] and received the Firefox pop-up offering to translate the page. I did not have to enable anything in settings neither is the French language model downloaded. It seems translations are enabled by default. [1]: https://www.elysee.fr/ https://www.elysee.fr/
      - closewith 2y ago
        I stand corrected on this point, the language packs now auto-download. It's still a niche feature only partially built by a Horizon project (it was almost entirely built by commercial entities - MS and Mozilla) in a niche browser. It's an indictment of the Horizon programme that this is considered the pre-eminent success story.
        VagabundoP 2y ago
        Its actually helped me a twice the last two weeks and I would browse mostly English language sites and I imagine it would be great if English wasn't your first language. I didn't even know it was a new Firefox feature but I thought it was cool. Well done EU.
        lxgr 2y ago
        You really can't win with some people. If the EU invests into research and development of a feature that a US tech company already offers (as a proprietary, closed-source service), it's needless duplication and a futile effort in catching up. Yet if it doesn't, that's admitting defeat in the face of competitors and the wrong move as well.
- input_sh 2y ago
  Where did you get 7 languages from? It's like 30 right now, with new ones being added regularly. What's unfinished about it? And Marian also received 6 grants via Horizon, in cooperation with the exact same universities (the one in Edinburgh being the main one), so I'm not sure what's your point? And did I try to list every success or one tangible example, as the parent asked?
  - closewith 2y ago
    > Where did you get 7 languages from? The Horizon/Bergamot project ended with seven languages. Anything thereafter was added separately. > What's unfinished about it? The project ended with an unfinished implementation. > And Marian was also funded by Horizon, also in cooperation with the exact same universities, so I'm not sure what's your point? No, Marian was funded by MS. You are revising history extraordinarily to make the most unimpressive project appear better than it was. If Bergamot achieved all its goals and was the exemplar of Horizon, Horizon would be a complete failure. As it was, the project limped over the line unfinished to be picked up by Mozilla.
- devit 2y ago
  Huh? Most Firefox users presumably use it, and anyway it's obviously essential and extremely useful functionality. And the really important languages for EU/US audiences are, in order, English, Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, German, Italian, which is, guess what, 7 languages...
  - closewith 2y ago
    > Huh? Most Firefox users presumably use it, and anyway it's obviously essential and extremely useful functionality. ~~Only Firefox users who explicitly enable offline translation per langauge in Settings use this feature~~, which will be a tiny minority of users in a browser with a tiny (~2.5%) market share. I'm wrong, the language packs now auto-download. > And the really important languages for EU/US audiences are, in order, English, Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, German, Italian, which is, guess what, 7 languages... Well, those weren't the seven languages supported by the Bergamot project when it ended. Only two of your seven were supported: Bulgarian, Czech, English, Estonian, French, Polish, and Spanish.
- alecmev 2y ago
  Can you, please, share a source for the claims you make about Marian? Specifically, "developed and open-sourced by a US multinational, Microsoft" and "funded by MS" (from two other comments by you)? It does look like Microsoft is (was) funding the project, and employs one of the authors as head of research at Microsoft Translator, which is great, but all the "seed" funding and actual research happened in EU. Microsoft hired the author only in 2018 [1], while the earliest EU grant was allocated in 2015 [2], and the main paper they published says "it has mainly been developed at the Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznan and at the University of Edinburgh" [3]. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/in/junczys/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/junczys/ [2] https://github.com/marian-nmt/marian#acknowledgements https://github.com/marian-nmt/marian#acknowledgements [3] https://aclanthology.org/P18-4020.pdf https://aclanthology.org/P18-4020.pdf
CrimsonRain 2y ago
Depends on how much money has been spent. Also money will be better spent with one common language instead of wasting so much time, resources and inconveniencing people with so many languages in this area.

Would you consider for example Firefox' completely-local translations a success? Directly funded by Horizon, made by a consortium of 4 European universities, now a part of Firefox?

murderfs 2y ago

They paid three million euros to integrate existing open source software into Firefox?!

bayindirh 2y ago
No, EU funded Bergamot and HPLT projects. Integration came much later, but again as a part of Bergamot project. [0]: https://browser.mt/ https://browser.mt/ [1]: https://hplt-project.org/ https://hplt-project.org/ [2]: https://github.com/mozilla/translations?tab=readme-ov-file#acknowledgements https://github.com/mozilla/translations?tab=readme-ov-file#a...
- shinryuu 2y ago
  Very grateful for those translations. Use them a lot!

closewith 2y ago

7 languages and a feature nobody to a rounding error uses? No, I don't consider that to be a research, economic, or technical success. Honestly, I'm not sure if you posted this is support of Horizon or against? The Horizon budget for 2021-2027 is €95.5 billion or ~€15 billion per annum. If a headline "success" is an unfinished implementation of translation in Firefox of a translation engine (Marian) built by the Microsoft Translator team, then it's safe to say Horizon is an unqualified failure.

Vinnl 2y ago
I don't have the numbers at hand or know if they're even public somewhere, but telemetry shows that Firefox Translations is used a lot. Definitely on the list of successful new Firefox features. (I'm a Mozilla employee, but I have not worked on Firefox Translations.)
- closewith 2y ago
  What is a lot? Before integration, it had ~490 users as an extension, vs ~800,000 for To Google Translate, the number one option. Offline translation has to be manually enabled per language in Settings. Frankly I don't believe there's any meaningful usage until I see the numbers.
  - e2le 2y ago
    >enabled per language in Settings. Do they? I tried opening a French government site[1] and received the Firefox pop-up offering to translate the page. I did not have to enable anything in settings neither is the French language model downloaded. It seems translations are enabled by default. [1]: https://www.elysee.fr/ https://www.elysee.fr/
    - closewith 2y ago
      I stand corrected on this point, the language packs now auto-download. It's still a niche feature only partially built by a Horizon project (it was almost entirely built by commercial entities - MS and Mozilla) in a niche browser. It's an indictment of the Horizon programme that this is considered the pre-eminent success story.
      - VagabundoP 2y ago
        Its actually helped me a twice the last two weeks and I would browse mostly English language sites and I imagine it would be great if English wasn't your first language. I didn't even know it was a new Firefox feature but I thought it was cool. Well done EU.
      - lxgr 2y ago
        You really can't win with some people. If the EU invests into research and development of a feature that a US tech company already offers (as a proprietary, closed-source service), it's needless duplication and a futile effort in catching up. Yet if it doesn't, that's admitting defeat in the face of competitors and the wrong move as well.
input_sh 2y ago
Where did you get 7 languages from? It's like 30 right now, with new ones being added regularly. What's unfinished about it? And Marian also received 6 grants via Horizon, in cooperation with the exact same universities (the one in Edinburgh being the main one), so I'm not sure what's your point? And did I try to list every success or one tangible example, as the parent asked?
- closewith 2y ago
  > Where did you get 7 languages from? The Horizon/Bergamot project ended with seven languages. Anything thereafter was added separately. > What's unfinished about it? The project ended with an unfinished implementation. > And Marian was also funded by Horizon, also in cooperation with the exact same universities, so I'm not sure what's your point? No, Marian was funded by MS. You are revising history extraordinarily to make the most unimpressive project appear better than it was. If Bergamot achieved all its goals and was the exemplar of Horizon, Horizon would be a complete failure. As it was, the project limped over the line unfinished to be picked up by Mozilla.
devit 2y ago
Huh? Most Firefox users presumably use it, and anyway it's obviously essential and extremely useful functionality. And the really important languages for EU/US audiences are, in order, English, Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, German, Italian, which is, guess what, 7 languages...
- closewith 2y ago
  > Huh? Most Firefox users presumably use it, and anyway it's obviously essential and extremely useful functionality. ~~Only Firefox users who explicitly enable offline translation per langauge in Settings use this feature~~, which will be a tiny minority of users in a browser with a tiny (~2.5%) market share. I'm wrong, the language packs now auto-download. > And the really important languages for EU/US audiences are, in order, English, Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, German, Italian, which is, guess what, 7 languages... Well, those weren't the seven languages supported by the Bergamot project when it ended. Only two of your seven were supported: Bulgarian, Czech, English, Estonian, French, Polish, and Spanish.
alecmev 2y ago
Can you, please, share a source for the claims you make about Marian? Specifically, "developed and open-sourced by a US multinational, Microsoft" and "funded by MS" (from two other comments by you)? It does look like Microsoft is (was) funding the project, and employs one of the authors as head of research at Microsoft Translator, which is great, but all the "seed" funding and actual research happened in EU. Microsoft hired the author only in 2018 [1], while the earliest EU grant was allocated in 2015 [2], and the main paper they published says "it has mainly been developed at the Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznan and at the University of Edinburgh" [3]. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/in/junczys/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/junczys/ [2] https://github.com/marian-nmt/marian#acknowledgements https://github.com/marian-nmt/marian#acknowledgements [3] https://aclanthology.org/P18-4020.pdf https://aclanthology.org/P18-4020.pdf

CrimsonRain 2y ago

Depends on how much money has been spent. Also money will be better spent with one common language instead of wasting so much time, resources and inconveniencing people with so many languages in this area.