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"It works!" is the only thing that will be visible on web page after hundreds of milions will be burned. I’m observing few of such „unprecedented” cooperation p

"It works!" is the only thing that will be visible on web page after hundreds of milions will be burned. I’m observing few of such „unprecedented” cooperation projects from EU funds. A lot of meetings, a lot of managers, plenty of very unskilled people creating mess and few names doing presentations so companies will believe everybody know what are they doing. Same from company side - they need being in those projects to comply with stupid EU rules about being eco. Ball of mud.

varjag 2y ago
Europe runs its space programme in this way and so far it has pretty good track record. There are more ways to build stuff than the worship of personality.
- Kuinox 2y ago
  I don't think Ariane have a "pretty good track record". Most expensive bug of all time that crashed a whole rocket, because of outdated and wrong software engineering practice. They dont innovate, looked down on SpaceX, they have bet against Falcon, and lost the bet. Now they are betting against the Starship. > Honestly, I don’t think Starship will be a game-changer or a real competitor -- ESA chief 2024 https://spacenews.com/europe-aims-to-end-space-access-crisis-with-ariane-6s-inaugural-launch/ https://spacenews.com/europe-aims-to-end-space-access-crisis... Meanwhile EU members are now launching their public project with SpaceX instead of ESA: https://www.space.com/space-exploration/spacex-rocket-next-gen-spainsat-ng-1-satellite-launch https://www.space.com/space-exploration/spacex-rocket-next-g... https://apnews.com/article/nasa-spacex-launch-astronauts-private-d850e84f510125d62c3678093837e868 https://apnews.com/article/nasa-spacex-launch-astronauts-pri... https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/IRIDE_pathfinder_satellite_has_launched https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/IRIDE_p...
  - varjag 2y ago
    If your metric of innovation is the amount of rockets exploded at debuts you shouldn't bring up SpaceX really. The EU had committed to a number of deep space and scientific instrument programmes spanning decades and seen them through to success. It operates its own GNSS constellation. It is second only to NASA. Calling it a failure is ridiculous.
    - closewith 2y ago
      > It operates its own GNSS constellation. Only 33 years later and mostly launched on Russian rockets, behind GLONASS and BeiDou. > It is second only to NASA. Calling it a failure is ridiculous. In what respect? Space? Certainly not, far behind the US and Russia and questionably competitive with China. Economically? Behind US and China. R&D? Behind US and China. Manufacturing? Behind US and China. You are refusing to recognise reality.
      - varjag 2y ago
        Russia had its last deep space mission (failed) in 1996. GLONASS did not operate until 2005. Chinese contributions to scientific space missions had been very modest although am sure they may catch up later. NASA has 3x the budget of ESA. The question was if the EU method of doing project works and it does in very unambiguous manner.
        closewith 2y ago
        > GLONASS did not operate until 2005. Five years before Galileo. > The question was if the EU method of doing project works and it does in very unambiguous manner. As the EU falls economically and scientifically behinds what used to be our peers, it's obvious that it _doesn't_ work. Refusing to recognise that reality is a spectacular example of the Ostrich effect,
        varjag 2y ago
        [dead]
        randomNumber7 2y ago
        It works as good as our energy policy. Ah there are other well working policies in the EU like the migration of skilled workers. All works well /S
        Xelbair 2y ago
        It works great! sadly the results are way behind it's peers, but method is great!
  - Jon_Lowtek 2y ago
    > most expensive bug of all time that crashed a whole rocket being valued at $ 370 million in 1996 that bug was recently dwarved by crowd strikes multi-billion-dollar disaster in 2024
- Xelbair 2y ago
  Europe honestly had pretty... mid track record for space program. should i bring up Galileo and how many years it took?
  - varjag 2y ago
    Is Galileo up there or it is just the PDFs and the red tape orbiting?
    - DocTomoe 2y ago
      If that is your metric, look up "ESA Hermes". It was basically Dreamchaser, only in the 1980s, and cancelled.
- graemep 2y ago
  > Europe runs its space programme Different Europe. The ESA is is not an EU agency so it runs by its own rules, its members include several non-EU countries, it has a non-European "cooperating state" and its funding is direct from member states. https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Cooperating_States https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Co...
  - varjag 2y ago
    Which are the non-member states still? Is that post Brexit UK and Norway (the EEA member)?
    - graemep 2y ago
      Full details here: https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Cooperating_States https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Co... Also, not all EU states are ESA member states. Canada is on the ESA governing council, and takes part in projects. In the context of Eu grants being discussed in this thread, its financing arrangements are very different from those, so its irrelevant to discussing the effectiveness or not of those.
- rcarmo 2y ago
  The only thing the European space program has consistently done right is using the metric system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter)

varjag 2y ago

Europe runs its space programme in this way and so far it has pretty good track record. There are more ways to build stuff than the worship of personality.

Kuinox 2y ago
I don't think Ariane have a "pretty good track record". Most expensive bug of all time that crashed a whole rocket, because of outdated and wrong software engineering practice. They dont innovate, looked down on SpaceX, they have bet against Falcon, and lost the bet. Now they are betting against the Starship. > Honestly, I don’t think Starship will be a game-changer or a real competitor -- ESA chief 2024 https://spacenews.com/europe-aims-to-end-space-access-crisis-with-ariane-6s-inaugural-launch/ https://spacenews.com/europe-aims-to-end-space-access-crisis... Meanwhile EU members are now launching their public project with SpaceX instead of ESA: https://www.space.com/space-exploration/spacex-rocket-next-gen-spainsat-ng-1-satellite-launch https://www.space.com/space-exploration/spacex-rocket-next-g... https://apnews.com/article/nasa-spacex-launch-astronauts-private-d850e84f510125d62c3678093837e868 https://apnews.com/article/nasa-spacex-launch-astronauts-pri... https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/IRIDE_pathfinder_satellite_has_launched https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/IRIDE_p...
- varjag 2y ago
  If your metric of innovation is the amount of rockets exploded at debuts you shouldn't bring up SpaceX really. The EU had committed to a number of deep space and scientific instrument programmes spanning decades and seen them through to success. It operates its own GNSS constellation. It is second only to NASA. Calling it a failure is ridiculous.
  - closewith 2y ago
    > It operates its own GNSS constellation. Only 33 years later and mostly launched on Russian rockets, behind GLONASS and BeiDou. > It is second only to NASA. Calling it a failure is ridiculous. In what respect? Space? Certainly not, far behind the US and Russia and questionably competitive with China. Economically? Behind US and China. R&D? Behind US and China. Manufacturing? Behind US and China. You are refusing to recognise reality.
    - varjag 2y ago
      Russia had its last deep space mission (failed) in 1996. GLONASS did not operate until 2005. Chinese contributions to scientific space missions had been very modest although am sure they may catch up later. NASA has 3x the budget of ESA. The question was if the EU method of doing project works and it does in very unambiguous manner.
      - closewith 2y ago
        > GLONASS did not operate until 2005. Five years before Galileo. > The question was if the EU method of doing project works and it does in very unambiguous manner. As the EU falls economically and scientifically behinds what used to be our peers, it's obvious that it _doesn't_ work. Refusing to recognise that reality is a spectacular example of the Ostrich effect,
        varjag 2y ago
        [dead]
        randomNumber7 2y ago
        It works as good as our energy policy. Ah there are other well working policies in the EU like the migration of skilled workers. All works well /S
      - Xelbair 2y ago
        It works great! sadly the results are way behind it's peers, but method is great!
- Jon_Lowtek 2y ago
  > most expensive bug of all time that crashed a whole rocket being valued at $ 370 million in 1996 that bug was recently dwarved by crowd strikes multi-billion-dollar disaster in 2024
Xelbair 2y ago
Europe honestly had pretty... mid track record for space program. should i bring up Galileo and how many years it took?
- varjag 2y ago
  Is Galileo up there or it is just the PDFs and the red tape orbiting?
  - DocTomoe 2y ago
    If that is your metric, look up "ESA Hermes". It was basically Dreamchaser, only in the 1980s, and cancelled.
graemep 2y ago
> Europe runs its space programme Different Europe. The ESA is is not an EU agency so it runs by its own rules, its members include several non-EU countries, it has a non-European "cooperating state" and its funding is direct from member states. https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Cooperating_States https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Co...
- varjag 2y ago
  Which are the non-member states still? Is that post Brexit UK and Norway (the EEA member)?
  - graemep 2y ago
    Full details here: https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Cooperating_States https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Co... Also, not all EU states are ESA member states. Canada is on the ESA governing council, and takes part in projects. In the context of Eu grants being discussed in this thread, its financing arrangements are very different from those, so its irrelevant to discussing the effectiveness or not of those.
rcarmo 2y ago
The only thing the European space program has consistently done right is using the metric system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter)