6 ms·

That’s a lot of words for “it cannot be used in everyday financial transactions”.

olalonde 2y ago
It's not convenient to use "Bitcoin the payment network" for everyday financial transactions, just as it's not convenient to use the "USD the payment network" (e.g. the Federal Reserve ledger) for everyday financial transactions (in fact, it's impossible). However, “Bitcoin the currency” and “USD the currency” work perfectly for daily use if you route them through trusted intermediaries (Strike, Cash App, PayPal, etc.). These third parties abstract away the base layer and offer fast, cheap, and reversible transactions.
- jcgl 2y ago
  But Bitcoin qua payment network is/was a major part of the Bitcoin value proposition—what a Bitcoin _is_ is an entry in a distributed ledger. Whereas USD is ultimately bearer tokens. Yes, those tokens can be optimized away as entries on a balance sheet when held by a large entity. But USD is a token system, not a payment network. Bitcoin is the opposite.
  - olalonde 2y ago
    > But Bitcoin qua payment network is/was a major part of the Bitcoin value proposition—what a Bitcoin _is_ is an entry in a distributed ledger. I know that's what hardcore Bitcoiners have typically pushed for, but I personally disagree. To me, the most interesting thing about Bitcoin is its predictable and unmanipulatable money supply. The payment network is nice though because it can let you easily and permissionlessly take your Bitcoin wherever you want. Fees are actually not that exorbitant, certainly cheaper than SWIFT transfers. The current average transaction fee is around 1 USD and the first confirmation, which is sufficient for most kind of transactions, takes 10 minutes on average. > Whereas USD is ultimately bearer tokens. Yes, those tokens can be optimized away as entries on a balance sheet when held by a large entity. But USD is a token system, not a payment network. Bitcoin is the opposite. USD cash is (paper bills and coins), not digital USD. Bitcoin is a digital bearer token system. As a side note, it wouldn't be very hard to replicate a cash system for Bitcoin, if there was an entity responsible for emitting and redeeming cash for digital Bitcoin (a bit like the US Mint but for Bitcoin).
toenail 2y ago
What do you mean, I use bitcoin and the lightning network all the time for small payments.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  I wish there was usdc over lightning if there is, it’s poorly advertised does seem like a huge swing and a miss for lightning to only have unstable value units of account going over it the market clearly wants something else, and has that, on other networks at large volumes
  - toenail 2y ago
    https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/taproot-assets https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/tap...
    - yieldcrv 2y ago
      thanks! yes I mean to check on bitcoin after major network upgrades like Taproot. okay that article was last updated 10 months, how is that panning out with standardized protocols and wallet integration and issuance? I’m curious where the communities about this are, or are nowadays
      - toenail 2y ago
        I personally have no need for "stable" assets, so I don't know more than that they exist.
        npoc 2y ago
        Same here. I'd rather hold and use an asset that unstably increases in value greatly over time, than one which continuously goes down in value to 0 (all fiat currencies go to zero eventually)

It's not convenient to use "Bitcoin the payment network" for everyday financial transactions, just as it's not convenient to use the "USD the payment network" (e.g. the Federal Reserve ledger) for everyday financial transactions (in fact, it's impossible). However, “Bitcoin the currency” and “USD the currency” work perfectly for daily use if you route them through trusted intermediaries (Strike, Cash App, PayPal, etc.). These third parties abstract away the base layer and offer fast, cheap, and reversible transactions.

jcgl 2y ago
But Bitcoin qua payment network is/was a major part of the Bitcoin value proposition—what a Bitcoin _is_ is an entry in a distributed ledger. Whereas USD is ultimately bearer tokens. Yes, those tokens can be optimized away as entries on a balance sheet when held by a large entity. But USD is a token system, not a payment network. Bitcoin is the opposite.
- olalonde 2y ago
  > But Bitcoin qua payment network is/was a major part of the Bitcoin value proposition—what a Bitcoin _is_ is an entry in a distributed ledger. I know that's what hardcore Bitcoiners have typically pushed for, but I personally disagree. To me, the most interesting thing about Bitcoin is its predictable and unmanipulatable money supply. The payment network is nice though because it can let you easily and permissionlessly take your Bitcoin wherever you want. Fees are actually not that exorbitant, certainly cheaper than SWIFT transfers. The current average transaction fee is around 1 USD and the first confirmation, which is sufficient for most kind of transactions, takes 10 minutes on average. > Whereas USD is ultimately bearer tokens. Yes, those tokens can be optimized away as entries on a balance sheet when held by a large entity. But USD is a token system, not a payment network. Bitcoin is the opposite. USD cash is (paper bills and coins), not digital USD. Bitcoin is a digital bearer token system. As a side note, it wouldn't be very hard to replicate a cash system for Bitcoin, if there was an entity responsible for emitting and redeeming cash for digital Bitcoin (a bit like the US Mint but for Bitcoin).

toenail 2y ago

What do you mean, I use bitcoin and the lightning network all the time for small payments.

yieldcrv 2y ago
I wish there was usdc over lightning if there is, it’s poorly advertised does seem like a huge swing and a miss for lightning to only have unstable value units of account going over it the market clearly wants something else, and has that, on other networks at large volumes
- toenail 2y ago
  https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/taproot-assets https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/tap...
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    thanks! yes I mean to check on bitcoin after major network upgrades like Taproot. okay that article was last updated 10 months, how is that panning out with standardized protocols and wallet integration and issuance? I’m curious where the communities about this are, or are nowadays
    - toenail 2y ago
      I personally have no need for "stable" assets, so I don't know more than that they exist.
      - npoc 2y ago
        Same here. I'd rather hold and use an asset that unstably increases in value greatly over time, than one which continuously goes down in value to 0 (all fiat currencies go to zero eventually)