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This is... a strange and jarring thing to read. My kneejerk response was that yes, they are innovating and experimenting with oppressive and corrupt governance,

This is... a strange and jarring thing to read. My kneejerk response was that yes, they are innovating and experimenting with oppressive and corrupt governance, but that is ultimately uncharitable. A more balanced response is that while you may personally think of Bitcoin as progressive (I can't imagine why) you certainly can't claim that Bukele's El Salvador is progressive. You may like the gang crackdown, you may appreciate the suspension of habeus corpus, but you can't claim that's a progressive position.

starspangled 2y ago
I don't think "bitcoin" is progressive, bitcoin is a technology. I think the idea of trying a decentralized electronic currency is progressive. Whether they implemented it well or should have seen the problems with using it as a currency is one thing, but in the idea of trying something new sure I think it was good. I don't think it caused grave harm to try. And I certainly can claim that their policies on crime are progressive. They are prioritizing the rights of the many law abiding people who have a fundamental human right to live unmolested and unterrorized by criminals. I think that is very progressive and quite a radical departure from the status quo. I don't think I have ever heard "human rights advocates" and UN types opine and lament the human rights of people who have to endure this type of criminal society and I think it is brave and progressive to fight for them. I absolutely understand that it has required concessions and weakening of rights in other areas, and I don't say that is a good thing, but everything is a tradeoff right? If they continued conservative status quo the tradeoff would have been other peoples rights continuing to be violated. Just because it's not "progressive" as exactly defined by an elite ruling class in the "international community" and think-tanks and academia, and the leftist intelligentsia at large, does not mean it is not progress in social reform and improvement for the greater good. To the actual people who have to live in El Salvador, approval for Bukele's reforms are staggering. I'm sure a lot of the "experts" who assured everybody they would never work are upset about it because they have a lot of egg on their face now, but fortunately the country has a bright young progressive leader who cares about the people more than the elitists say.
- archagon 2y ago
  That’s all well and good until innocent people get caught in the net. How many thousands of young people are worth incarcerating indefinitely and without legal recourse for the benefit of society at large? Would you throw your own child into the pit if it meant that the happiness and safety of your town was ensured? In the extreme, why not just make every crime carry a death penalty? Would that society be perfect by your measure? (And that’s before we start dissecting the bribery and corruption of those who wield this power.)
  - starspangled 2y ago
    > That’s all well and good until innocent people get caught in the net. Is your position that no innocent people were convicted of crimes before the reforms, or that innocent people do not get caught in the crimes that have been reduced so dramatically? > How many thousands of young people are worth incarcerating indefinitely and without legal recourse for the benefit of society? And how many young people are not killed or maimed or dragged into a life of crime indefinitely and without recourse in the alternative? As I said, I acknowledge the issues with it, but no social policy is perfect and all social policy is a balance. You can't pull out "human rights" as a trump card to say Bukele's policies are bad or worse than before. Because you are confining and defining human rights in a very narrow specific way, and that does not account for many other rights of many other classes of people.
  - csomar 2y ago
    > How many thousands of young people are worth incarcerating indefinitely and without legal recourse for the benefit of society at large? You can actually do the math for that. If the number of innocent people harmed by the gangs is more than the number of innocent people caught in the legal cross-fire then it is worth it.
    - EA-3167 2y ago
      That assumes a lot, most importantly that the harm is limited to "innocent person in prison" rather than, "Government has the power to throw anyone it wants into prison, effectively disappearing them." The history of these sort of measures is a history of a slide into something worse than whatever was being solved in the first place.
carlosjobim 2y ago
The word progressive has a real meaning besides the popular figure-of-speech of calling leftist policies "progressive". Progress in anything, including politics, can move in a direction you like or in a direction you don't like. It's still progress.
- esafak 2y ago
  No, it does not. Progress is positive. The word you are thinking of is change. Change can take you in any direction, even though the left also likes that word.
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    Progress is positive as in forward, which is not exclusive for any political leaning.
heartbreak 2y ago
CNN says Secretary Rubio just struck a deal with Bukele to accept deportees from the United States regardless of nationality, including US citizens, as long as we pay to house them in his prison.
- NewJazz 2y ago
  They're deporting US citizens? How is that even legal?
  - ImJamal 2y ago
    That is not what is happening. The agreement is to use El Salvadorian prisons instead of US prisons for prisoners. El Salvador said they would be willing to accept any prisoner, regardless of nationality. The US citizens would not be deported, but imprisoned in another country. However, it is not clear if the US will use El Salvadoran prisons for US citizens, only foreigners or not at all.
    - NewJazz 2y ago
      That's deportation.
      - ImJamal 2y ago
        The definition according to Google is > the action of deporting a foreigner from a country. A citizen would obviously not be deported.
        NewJazz 2y ago
        Forcing someone out of a country is deportation. Maybe not in your dictionary, but in reality. Tell me, when in history has the US sent its citizens to overseas prisons?
        ImJamal 2y ago

starspangled 2y ago

I don't think "bitcoin" is progressive, bitcoin is a technology. I think the idea of trying a decentralized electronic currency is progressive. Whether they implemented it well or should have seen the problems with using it as a currency is one thing, but in the idea of trying something new sure I think it was good. I don't think it caused grave harm to try. And I certainly can claim that their policies on crime are progressive. They are prioritizing the rights of the many law abiding people who have a fundamental human right to live unmolested and unterrorized by criminals. I think that is very progressive and quite a radical departure from the status quo. I don't think I have ever heard "human rights advocates" and UN types opine and lament the human rights of people who have to endure this type of criminal society and I think it is brave and progressive to fight for them. I absolutely understand that it has required concessions and weakening of rights in other areas, and I don't say that is a good thing, but everything is a tradeoff right? If they continued conservative status quo the tradeoff would have been other peoples rights continuing to be violated. Just because it's not "progressive" as exactly defined by an elite ruling class in the "international community" and think-tanks and academia, and the leftist intelligentsia at large, does not mean it is not progress in social reform and improvement for the greater good. To the actual people who have to live in El Salvador, approval for Bukele's reforms are staggering. I'm sure a lot of the "experts" who assured everybody they would never work are upset about it because they have a lot of egg on their face now, but fortunately the country has a bright young progressive leader who cares about the people more than the elitists say.

archagon 2y ago
That’s all well and good until innocent people get caught in the net. How many thousands of young people are worth incarcerating indefinitely and without legal recourse for the benefit of society at large? Would you throw your own child into the pit if it meant that the happiness and safety of your town was ensured? In the extreme, why not just make every crime carry a death penalty? Would that society be perfect by your measure? (And that’s before we start dissecting the bribery and corruption of those who wield this power.)
- starspangled 2y ago
  > That’s all well and good until innocent people get caught in the net. Is your position that no innocent people were convicted of crimes before the reforms, or that innocent people do not get caught in the crimes that have been reduced so dramatically? > How many thousands of young people are worth incarcerating indefinitely and without legal recourse for the benefit of society? And how many young people are not killed or maimed or dragged into a life of crime indefinitely and without recourse in the alternative? As I said, I acknowledge the issues with it, but no social policy is perfect and all social policy is a balance. You can't pull out "human rights" as a trump card to say Bukele's policies are bad or worse than before. Because you are confining and defining human rights in a very narrow specific way, and that does not account for many other rights of many other classes of people.
- csomar 2y ago
  > How many thousands of young people are worth incarcerating indefinitely and without legal recourse for the benefit of society at large? You can actually do the math for that. If the number of innocent people harmed by the gangs is more than the number of innocent people caught in the legal cross-fire then it is worth it.
  - EA-3167 2y ago
    That assumes a lot, most importantly that the harm is limited to "innocent person in prison" rather than, "Government has the power to throw anyone it wants into prison, effectively disappearing them." The history of these sort of measures is a history of a slide into something worse than whatever was being solved in the first place.

carlosjobim 2y ago

The word progressive has a real meaning besides the popular figure-of-speech of calling leftist policies "progressive". Progress in anything, including politics, can move in a direction you like or in a direction you don't like. It's still progress.

esafak 2y ago
No, it does not. Progress is positive. The word you are thinking of is change. Change can take you in any direction, even though the left also likes that word.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Progress is positive as in forward, which is not exclusive for any political leaning.

heartbreak 2y ago

CNN says Secretary Rubio just struck a deal with Bukele to accept deportees from the United States regardless of nationality, including US citizens, as long as we pay to house them in his prison.

NewJazz 2y ago
They're deporting US citizens? How is that even legal?
- ImJamal 2y ago
  That is not what is happening. The agreement is to use El Salvadorian prisons instead of US prisons for prisoners. El Salvador said they would be willing to accept any prisoner, regardless of nationality. The US citizens would not be deported, but imprisoned in another country. However, it is not clear if the US will use El Salvadoran prisons for US citizens, only foreigners or not at all.
  - NewJazz 2y ago
    That's deportation.
    - ImJamal 2y ago
      The definition according to Google is > the action of deporting a foreigner from a country. A citizen would obviously not be deported.
      - NewJazz 2y ago
        Forcing someone out of a country is deportation. Maybe not in your dictionary, but in reality. Tell me, when in history has the US sent its citizens to overseas prisons?
        ImJamal 2y ago