6 ms·

Inside Musk's Aggressive Incursion into the Federal Government

67 points by breadwinner 2y ago

cs702 2y ago
When a business bets itself on a bold gamble, with enormous upside but also enormous downside, if the gamble doesn't pay off, the worst thing that happens is that the business goes bankrupt, investors lose some money, employees lose their jobs, and everyone involved eventually moves on. When a country bets itself on a bold gamble, with enormous upside but also enormous downside, if the gamble doesn't pay off, the worst thing that happens is that the country fails, institutions break down, conflict and violence erupt everywhere, entire populations suffer, and no one has a way out. Like it or not, the US is going to bet itself on a bold gamble. Bureaucrats, lawmakers, and the courts move too slowly to be able to do anything about it. Indeed, it's already happening. As someone quoted in the OP explains: "Before Congress and the courts can respond, Elon Musk will have rolled up the whole government."
- basementcat 2y ago
  Wealthy generally suffer less. Sometimes they may even thrive with new arbitrage opportunities.
- _boffin_ 2y ago
  This reminds me of a story i read about in The Power Broker about Robert Moses. He wanted to tear down, i think, the old mayor's mansion or something, but someone got a court order to stop him. The date was set for a few days out. The night before the court date, he leveled the place and then went to court and said, "it's already done. There's no reason for me to be here." and that was it.
  - ok_dad 2y ago
    Meigs Field airport in Chicago was demolished (well the runway was) overnight by order of Mayor Daley in the 90s during a contentious fight over whether to close it or not. Laws aren’t fast enough to stop someone with the will and power to act quickly.
breadwinner 2y ago
Elon Musk doesn’t have the authority to overturn programs and spending priorities decided by Congress. And yet he is doing that, for example he "deleted" 18F that build the Direct File site for filing taxes. Then USAID the foreign assistance agency. “We spent the weekend feeding USAID into the wood chipper,” Mr. Musk gloated on X at 1:54 a.m. Monday. “Could gone to some great parties. Did that instead.”
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  I think that delegating power to government agencies are a lot more complicated than is commonly understood. My surface level understanding is that the agencies run under the executive branch with funding from congress. If that is true, then the chief executive would have the authority to instruct the agency to do nothing and spend no money, but he wouldn’t have the authority to instruct the agency to spend more than authorized by congress. I guess congress will have to garbage collect the funding as a technicality, though there may be a built in mechanism for reallocating underspent budgets.
  - Volundr 2y ago
    > If that is true, then the chief executive would have the authority to instruct the agency to do nothing and spend no money This is called Impoundment, and is illegal. Just ask Nixon. The Executive branch is actually required to spend as dictated by Congress. There is a portion of spending that is discretionary, but it's a small minority of the Federal budget, and does not include the things currently being targeted. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impoundment_of_appropriated_funds https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impoundment_of_appropriated_...
  - mplanchard 2y ago
    This is not correct. The executive branch is required to disburse the money allocated by Congress. See the Impoundment Control Act of 1974.
- jdminhbg 2y ago
  > Elon Musk doesn’t have the authority to overturn programs and spending priorities decided by Congress. And yet he is doing that, for example he "deleted" 18F that build the Direct File site for filing taxes. This is the problem I have with all of the commentary on DOGE, it's extremely slippery about what is being paid for by whom and how. The official website for 18F says they are not allocated funding by Congress: https://18f.gsa.gov/about/ https://18f.gsa.gov/about/
ty6853 2y ago
I think civil servants underestimate how many are cheering on the incursion. A large portion if the populace that educated professional class rarely mix with view much of the federal government as paper pushers who declare shoe laces as machine guns, arrest people for improperly packaged lobsters, stop the import of favored trucks like the Hilux, and roll into towns like Waco and pose in pictures of the rubble of children burned alive. The reasoning musk provides may be untruthful, but it's incredibly persuasive to a winning segment of voters. These articles are meant to be alarm bells, but they end up as delightful entertainment.
- namuol 2y ago
  Maybe I’m just out of touch, but I’m not convinced the general public thinks any of those bizarrely specific things.
  - kragen 2y ago
    These weren't that hard to find, so I think probably a lot of people know about them, even though I didn't: https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/n4dpm7/the_atf_outlawed_shoelaces/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/n4dpm7/the_atf_outlawe... https://ideatransfuser.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/from-lobster-importing-to-prison-a-story-of-violation/ https://ideatransfuser.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/from-lobster... https://fourwheelinsider.com/toyota-hilux-united-states/ https://fourwheelinsider.com/toyota-hilux-united-states/ You can't possibly be unaware of the Waco mass killing if you are confusing the US electorate with the general public.
    - namuol 2y ago
      I never doubted these were real stories, I just doubt they’re particularly relatable. On Waco: I do not see how this fits in with the others.
      - kragen 2y ago
        You don't think wanting to buy a Toyota Hilux is "relatable"? Or importing lobster tails and getting arrested for it? Or wanting to play with guns? Or watching your family members burned to death without a trial on national TV? What meaning of "relatable" are you using here, and how does it relate to public opinion about the Federal Government?
k310 2y ago
[flagged]
- dang 2y ago
  Please don't. It only makes things worse.
Trasmatta 2y ago
A private, unelected individual is dismantling the US government from the inside. Congress is doing nothing about it. This is one of the wildest things I've seen in my life.
- kccoder 2y ago
  And for some reason there are many commenters here defending it and dismissing the severity. Concerning.
- belter 2y ago
  History will record that HN decided to Flag every single story about it.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    HN's moderation is largely by its members, and controversial topics (of any stripe) tend to draw flags. More: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42931051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42931051> More on other forms of moderation, mostly automatic, recently by dang (HN's public moderator) at length: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011>. If you feel a story is inappropriately flagged, email the mods to request disabling flags at hn@ycombinator.com. For writing effective emails see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42922791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42922791>
    - ttepasse 2y ago
      The ratio of flags needed is a moderation decision. The decision not to change it is a moderation decision. The decision not to override it is a moderation decision.
- belter 2y ago
  It is gone: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jEBnrzNuUSA https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jEBnrzNuUSA
belter 2y ago
[dupe]
- dang 2y ago
  Please don't copy-paste comments. It lowers the signal-noise ratio and makes merging threads a pain.
  - belter 2y ago
    Got it. Sorry...
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    I'm going to push back on this. Where a given topic, point, issue, or argument is frequently made, and especially (but not only) where it is of limited veracity (or as Frankfurter and Brandolini brand it, bullshit), the latter's asymmetry law argues for an effective and low-cost countermeasure, or for context to be supplied readily. Copy-pasta issues and bullshit justify copy-pasta responses. The flags and admonition here should be reversed. (This of course doesn't apply to all copy-pasta, and bogus copy-pasta is of course strongly deprecated.)
neonate 2y ago
https://archive.ph/Pv003 https://archive.ph/Pv003
ok_dad 2y ago
My autistic kid and my whole family rely on Medicaid while we have no income. Is it worth my kid not having their necessary treatments to save a few thousand bucks? Any MAGA want to answer me as to why this is a good thing? I served America for a decade in the military and now I’ll lose my home and medical coverage and my son will back slide and probably never recover. I’m also a disabled veteran, so when do they cut those benefits? Will I lose the money I currently use to pay for food, too? Tell me, was this worth it to own the libs? I want to yell at you MAGA folks but I don’t want to get banned here, so I’m being as nice as possible but I really hate you guys right now. Edit: instead of pressing downvote why don’t you cowards speak?
- imperial_march 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - AnEro 2y ago
    Crash out, it's delusional to think the anti-medicaid and public healthcare party is only going to go after bloat in medicaid in good faith.
  - rimbo789 2y ago
    Having worked financial management in federal govt and private sector there is far far far more graft, outright theft and corruption, and incredible waste in the private sector than the public sector.
    - Volundr 2y ago
      Pretty much this. I too have done both private sector and government. People think government is more wasteful than private because it's public. When government wastes a few million some unneeded program the details are just an FOIA request away. Oftentimes it's already published somewhere if you know where to look. That (even a publicly traded one) business wasting millions on a Salesforce rollout that never gains traction and gets quietly abandoned? Odds are no one not directly involved knows. And the exec pushing it gets promoted.
r0ckarong 2y ago
Undoing a century of progress in a fortnight without using weapons must be some kind of record.
- outside1234 2y ago
  It is going to be "find out" for a lot of people soon.
throwaway48duf 2y ago
So he gets in office and gives the office to an AI overlord to hasten AI taking jobs and first target is the federal government. Im not understanding how this will help Americans, their jobs, livelihoods and the economy? Not trying to be political just confused by elect me and America will be more prosperous. How will it when the worry of AI taking jobs is right here at our feet, being done so at the federal level and being expedited by a guy who has more money then whatever.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  >America will be more prosperous. I think the key is that parts of America will be more prosperous. For example, the already-prosperous.
pge 2y ago
three selfish reasons everyone should be in favor of expanded medicaid (ie in favor of everyone having access to healthcare): * healthy people are able to work and pay taxes * when people don’t have access to regular care, they end up in the ER when things get really bad. All the rest of us pay the cost of those visits * access to care (particularly vaccines like flu or covid) means less spread of disease and leas exposure to disease for the rest of us
_boffin_ 2y ago
fait accompli

67 points by breadwinner 2y ago

When a business bets itself on a bold gamble, with enormous upside but also enormous downside, if the gamble doesn't pay off, the worst thing that happens is that the business goes bankrupt, investors lose some money, employees lose their jobs, and everyone involved eventually moves on. When a country bets itself on a bold gamble, with enormous upside but also enormous downside, if the gamble doesn't pay off, the worst thing that happens is that the country fails, institutions break down, conflict and violence erupt everywhere, entire populations suffer, and no one has a way out. Like it or not, the US is going to bet itself on a bold gamble. Bureaucrats, lawmakers, and the courts move too slowly to be able to do anything about it. Indeed, it's already happening. As someone quoted in the OP explains: "Before Congress and the courts can respond, Elon Musk will have rolled up the whole government."

basementcat 2y ago
Wealthy generally suffer less. Sometimes they may even thrive with new arbitrage opportunities.
_boffin_ 2y ago
This reminds me of a story i read about in The Power Broker about Robert Moses. He wanted to tear down, i think, the old mayor's mansion or something, but someone got a court order to stop him. The date was set for a few days out. The night before the court date, he leveled the place and then went to court and said, "it's already done. There's no reason for me to be here." and that was it.
- ok_dad 2y ago
  Meigs Field airport in Chicago was demolished (well the runway was) overnight by order of Mayor Daley in the 90s during a contentious fight over whether to close it or not. Laws aren’t fast enough to stop someone with the will and power to act quickly.

breadwinner 2y ago

Elon Musk doesn’t have the authority to overturn programs and spending priorities decided by Congress. And yet he is doing that, for example he "deleted" 18F that build the Direct File site for filing taxes. Then USAID the foreign assistance agency. “We spent the weekend feeding USAID into the wood chipper,” Mr. Musk gloated on X at 1:54 a.m. Monday. “Could gone to some great parties. Did that instead.”

pfannkuchen 2y ago
I think that delegating power to government agencies are a lot more complicated than is commonly understood. My surface level understanding is that the agencies run under the executive branch with funding from congress. If that is true, then the chief executive would have the authority to instruct the agency to do nothing and spend no money, but he wouldn’t have the authority to instruct the agency to spend more than authorized by congress. I guess congress will have to garbage collect the funding as a technicality, though there may be a built in mechanism for reallocating underspent budgets.
- Volundr 2y ago
  > If that is true, then the chief executive would have the authority to instruct the agency to do nothing and spend no money This is called Impoundment, and is illegal. Just ask Nixon. The Executive branch is actually required to spend as dictated by Congress. There is a portion of spending that is discretionary, but it's a small minority of the Federal budget, and does not include the things currently being targeted. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impoundment_of_appropriated_funds https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impoundment_of_appropriated_...
- mplanchard 2y ago
  This is not correct. The executive branch is required to disburse the money allocated by Congress. See the Impoundment Control Act of 1974.
jdminhbg 2y ago
> Elon Musk doesn’t have the authority to overturn programs and spending priorities decided by Congress. And yet he is doing that, for example he "deleted" 18F that build the Direct File site for filing taxes. This is the problem I have with all of the commentary on DOGE, it's extremely slippery about what is being paid for by whom and how. The official website for 18F says they are not allocated funding by Congress: https://18f.gsa.gov/about/ https://18f.gsa.gov/about/

ty6853 2y ago

I think civil servants underestimate how many are cheering on the incursion. A large portion if the populace that educated professional class rarely mix with view much of the federal government as paper pushers who declare shoe laces as machine guns, arrest people for improperly packaged lobsters, stop the import of favored trucks like the Hilux, and roll into towns like Waco and pose in pictures of the rubble of children burned alive. The reasoning musk provides may be untruthful, but it's incredibly persuasive to a winning segment of voters. These articles are meant to be alarm bells, but they end up as delightful entertainment.

namuol 2y ago
Maybe I’m just out of touch, but I’m not convinced the general public thinks any of those bizarrely specific things.
- kragen 2y ago
  These weren't that hard to find, so I think probably a lot of people know about them, even though I didn't: https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/n4dpm7/the_atf_outlawed_shoelaces/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/n4dpm7/the_atf_outlawe... https://ideatransfuser.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/from-lobster-importing-to-prison-a-story-of-violation/ https://ideatransfuser.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/from-lobster... https://fourwheelinsider.com/toyota-hilux-united-states/ https://fourwheelinsider.com/toyota-hilux-united-states/ You can't possibly be unaware of the Waco mass killing if you are confusing the US electorate with the general public.
  - namuol 2y ago
    I never doubted these were real stories, I just doubt they’re particularly relatable. On Waco: I do not see how this fits in with the others.
    - kragen 2y ago
      You don't think wanting to buy a Toyota Hilux is "relatable"? Or importing lobster tails and getting arrested for it? Or wanting to play with guns? Or watching your family members burned to death without a trial on national TV? What meaning of "relatable" are you using here, and how does it relate to public opinion about the Federal Government?

k310 2y ago

[flagged]

dang 2y ago
Please don't. It only makes things worse.

Trasmatta 2y ago

A private, unelected individual is dismantling the US government from the inside. Congress is doing nothing about it. This is one of the wildest things I've seen in my life.

kccoder 2y ago
And for some reason there are many commenters here defending it and dismissing the severity. Concerning.
belter 2y ago
History will record that HN decided to Flag every single story about it.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  [flagged]
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  HN's moderation is largely by its members, and controversial topics (of any stripe) tend to draw flags. More: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42931051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42931051> More on other forms of moderation, mostly automatic, recently by dang (HN's public moderator) at length: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011>. If you feel a story is inappropriately flagged, email the mods to request disabling flags at hn@ycombinator.com. For writing effective emails see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42922791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42922791>
  - ttepasse 2y ago
    The ratio of flags needed is a moderation decision. The decision not to change it is a moderation decision. The decision not to override it is a moderation decision.
belter 2y ago
It is gone: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jEBnrzNuUSA https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jEBnrzNuUSA

belter 2y ago

[dupe]

dang 2y ago
Please don't copy-paste comments. It lowers the signal-noise ratio and makes merging threads a pain.
- belter 2y ago
  Got it. Sorry...
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  I'm going to push back on this. Where a given topic, point, issue, or argument is frequently made, and especially (but not only) where it is of limited veracity (or as Frankfurter and Brandolini brand it, bullshit), the latter's asymmetry law argues for an effective and low-cost countermeasure, or for context to be supplied readily. Copy-pasta issues and bullshit justify copy-pasta responses. The flags and admonition here should be reversed. (This of course doesn't apply to all copy-pasta, and bogus copy-pasta is of course strongly deprecated.)

neonate 2y ago

https://archive.ph/Pv003 https://archive.ph/Pv003

ok_dad 2y ago

My autistic kid and my whole family rely on Medicaid while we have no income. Is it worth my kid not having their necessary treatments to save a few thousand bucks? Any MAGA want to answer me as to why this is a good thing? I served America for a decade in the military and now I’ll lose my home and medical coverage and my son will back slide and probably never recover. I’m also a disabled veteran, so when do they cut those benefits? Will I lose the money I currently use to pay for food, too? Tell me, was this worth it to own the libs? I want to yell at you MAGA folks but I don’t want to get banned here, so I’m being as nice as possible but I really hate you guys right now. Edit: instead of pressing downvote why don’t you cowards speak?

imperial_march 2y ago
[flagged]
- AnEro 2y ago
  Crash out, it's delusional to think the anti-medicaid and public healthcare party is only going to go after bloat in medicaid in good faith.
- rimbo789 2y ago
  Having worked financial management in federal govt and private sector there is far far far more graft, outright theft and corruption, and incredible waste in the private sector than the public sector.
  - Volundr 2y ago
    Pretty much this. I too have done both private sector and government. People think government is more wasteful than private because it's public. When government wastes a few million some unneeded program the details are just an FOIA request away. Oftentimes it's already published somewhere if you know where to look. That (even a publicly traded one) business wasting millions on a Salesforce rollout that never gains traction and gets quietly abandoned? Odds are no one not directly involved knows. And the exec pushing it gets promoted.

r0ckarong 2y ago

Undoing a century of progress in a fortnight without using weapons must be some kind of record.

outside1234 2y ago
It is going to be "find out" for a lot of people soon.

throwaway48duf 2y ago

So he gets in office and gives the office to an AI overlord to hasten AI taking jobs and first target is the federal government. Im not understanding how this will help Americans, their jobs, livelihoods and the economy? Not trying to be political just confused by elect me and America will be more prosperous. How will it when the worry of AI taking jobs is right here at our feet, being done so at the federal level and being expedited by a guy who has more money then whatever.

ziddoap 2y ago
>America will be more prosperous. I think the key is that parts of America will be more prosperous. For example, the already-prosperous.

pge 2y ago

three selfish reasons everyone should be in favor of expanded medicaid (ie in favor of everyone having access to healthcare): * healthy people are able to work and pay taxes * when people don’t have access to regular care, they end up in the ER when things get really bad. All the rest of us pay the cost of those visits * access to care (particularly vaccines like flu or covid) means less spread of disease and leas exposure to disease for the rest of us

_boffin_ 2y ago

fait accompli