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I read the article, but I didn't find a reason as to why they picked the multiplayer Tetris game as opposed to the myriad of singleplayer ones. I think this is

by speff 2y ago

I read the article, but I didn't find a reason as to why they picked the multiplayer Tetris game as opposed to the myriad of singleplayer ones. I think this is a neat beginner project, but can't help but think of the handful of times I tried T99 just to quickly quit again because I got stomped on every time. How much unnecessary frustration was caused by testing this out in prod? I know they said they only got a handful of wins, but how many people did it knock out over the course of testing it?

Waterluvian 2y ago
Feels like feeling slighted by a drop of rain in a storm.
- speff 2y ago
  Your point's not lost on me, but if you allow me to modify the analogy to: Feels like feeling slighted by a water hose in a storm. I think that's more accurate. Yea I'm still drenched, but it would feel (irrationally) worse if someone sprayed me in the rain
chefandy 2y ago
It’s weird that caring about people impacted by the training of a hobby NN model feels anachronistic. Well those people were ALL the way at the other end of the internet tube, and it was only a game so their time doesn’t really matter, and think about how many people “weren’t” impacted! It seems like tech has gotten so dang self-absorbed.
hsisfullofbots 2y ago
The only positive thing we can say is that the bot appears to be - at best - slightly above average with Tetris 99 compared to an average human. Which makes it pathetic at this task considering it is a bot and should have near perfection with minimal effort. One extra slightly above human has little impact in the game honestly. They don't do T-spins. They don't stack large attacks for KO's, or even seems to alter targets under any condition at all even. The targeting reticule is hard stuck on attackers with zero input put into it. So it has no overarching strategy besides survival, but even then, it doesn't try to play the badge stealth game either - backstabbing a leading player is the leading method of making comebacks, and necessary ones too. Which is why it reliably gets in the top 15 and then loses, you can not outfire someone without badges, there ARE one-shots in Tetris 99, the bot probably only won when it lucked out early on in being the leader of the pack and then fed on a crowd of people with targetting set to "badges" (there's a firepower multiplier when targeted by many people). Which is... kinda pathetic reading into when I'm someone who reliably got top 3 outside of the Invictus mode. I think the creator might have 0 idea of what defines Tetris 99 at all. Like, straight up no awareness whatsoever. They're bad at this game, and thus, made a bot equally bad and only wins with luck. It's just playing normal Tetris. It literally has no reason to do this against humans, does nothing with the human element. So it'll beat other clueless humans and then lose to the actually good humans. Between those two human groups, they're just one more in a sea of typical indistinguishable threats and fodder. Good on the creator for stopping before making something more competent.
sschul 2y ago
Thanks for your critique of the project. Initially, we chose Tetris 99 because that was the context in which we had the idea. I won't deny, though, that being able to compare Jeff's performance with human players and see his interactions and victories in the Tetris 99 environment made the project more interesting for us; however, it was wrong to do so in a public setting where the players didn't know that our algorithm was involved and didn't opt in to playing against it. We're no longer testing or developing Jeff, and if I do any similar future projects I'll choose singleplayer games or private environments where opponents voluntarily test their skills against the bot.
- taskforcegemini 2y ago
  thank you for reconsidering. online games are ruined by bots left and right.

by speff 2y ago

Waterluvian 2y ago

Feels like feeling slighted by a drop of rain in a storm.

speff 2y ago
Your point's not lost on me, but if you allow me to modify the analogy to: Feels like feeling slighted by a water hose in a storm. I think that's more accurate. Yea I'm still drenched, but it would feel (irrationally) worse if someone sprayed me in the rain

chefandy 2y ago

It’s weird that caring about people impacted by the training of a hobby NN model feels anachronistic. Well those people were ALL the way at the other end of the internet tube, and it was only a game so their time doesn’t really matter, and think about how many people “weren’t” impacted! It seems like tech has gotten so dang self-absorbed.

hsisfullofbots 2y ago

The only positive thing we can say is that the bot appears to be - at best - slightly above average with Tetris 99 compared to an average human. Which makes it pathetic at this task considering it is a bot and should have near perfection with minimal effort. One extra slightly above human has little impact in the game honestly. They don't do T-spins. They don't stack large attacks for KO's, or even seems to alter targets under any condition at all even. The targeting reticule is hard stuck on attackers with zero input put into it. So it has no overarching strategy besides survival, but even then, it doesn't try to play the badge stealth game either - backstabbing a leading player is the leading method of making comebacks, and necessary ones too. Which is why it reliably gets in the top 15 and then loses, you can not outfire someone without badges, there ARE one-shots in Tetris 99, the bot probably only won when it lucked out early on in being the leader of the pack and then fed on a crowd of people with targetting set to "badges" (there's a firepower multiplier when targeted by many people). Which is... kinda pathetic reading into when I'm someone who reliably got top 3 outside of the Invictus mode. I think the creator might have 0 idea of what defines Tetris 99 at all. Like, straight up no awareness whatsoever. They're bad at this game, and thus, made a bot equally bad and only wins with luck. It's just playing normal Tetris. It literally has no reason to do this against humans, does nothing with the human element. So it'll beat other clueless humans and then lose to the actually good humans. Between those two human groups, they're just one more in a sea of typical indistinguishable threats and fodder. Good on the creator for stopping before making something more competent.

sschul 2y ago

Thanks for your critique of the project. Initially, we chose Tetris 99 because that was the context in which we had the idea. I won't deny, though, that being able to compare Jeff's performance with human players and see his interactions and victories in the Tetris 99 environment made the project more interesting for us; however, it was wrong to do so in a public setting where the players didn't know that our algorithm was involved and didn't opt in to playing against it. We're no longer testing or developing Jeff, and if I do any similar future projects I'll choose singleplayer games or private environments where opponents voluntarily test their skills against the bot.

taskforcegemini 2y ago
thank you for reconsidering. online games are ruined by bots left and right.