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This hits the nail on the head. The issue is that humans are accountable, but systems are not. And smart humans learned how to hide behind systems to avoid acco

This hits the nail on the head. The issue is that humans are accountable, but systems are not. And smart humans learned how to hide behind systems to avoid accountability. That's the whole strategy of using corporations, a social structure that removes individuals from responsibility. A corporation can do pretty much anything, including criminal acts, and the humans benefiting from it are shield from the negative results except for financial losses. What we're seeing is just the whole strategy moving into the level of computer systems (and Google has already used this accountability skirting strategy for more than two decades).

taeric 2y ago
The problem you will quickly run into is individuals cannot take the load that this line of thinking leads to. Accidentally typo an extra 0 on a payment process? Hope you have the funds to take accountability on that mistake. After all, we have taken the choice that the system cannot be operated to rollback any choice, as that would lower human accountability...
- the8472 2y ago
  Then that person should have the right to refuse, ask for appropriate compensation or insurance. It's often argued here that the C-suite earns their high compensation by taking on those risks. So let the CFO fatfinger those unchecked transfers if he wishes. But if rollbacks are possible and cheap then we need all that much accountability. People want accountability when there's no rollback possible, e.g. when decisions leads to deaths or life-years wasted.
  - taeric 2y ago
    Your last sentence is basically my disagreement and push, here? Systems can be made so that they can be rolled back. More, systems that oversee life and death situations often have to act faster than a human can respond to them. I'm all for trying to get personal accountability to lead to a personal liability as much as we want. That, just isn't going to happen. So, if you want to change the manual page in question to be that systems should be reversible or "fixable", for whatever that means, sure. But "management decisions" are usually among the most reversible choices any company will ever make.
EtCepeyd 2y ago
> smart humans learned how to hide behind systems to avoid accountability And "systems" is more general in this sense than just technology. Consider stoning, and firing squads. Both were invented to remove individual responsibility.

taeric 2y ago

The problem you will quickly run into is individuals cannot take the load that this line of thinking leads to. Accidentally typo an extra 0 on a payment process? Hope you have the funds to take accountability on that mistake. After all, we have taken the choice that the system cannot be operated to rollback any choice, as that would lower human accountability...

the8472 2y ago
Then that person should have the right to refuse, ask for appropriate compensation or insurance. It's often argued here that the C-suite earns their high compensation by taking on those risks. So let the CFO fatfinger those unchecked transfers if he wishes. But if rollbacks are possible and cheap then we need all that much accountability. People want accountability when there's no rollback possible, e.g. when decisions leads to deaths or life-years wasted.
- taeric 2y ago
  Your last sentence is basically my disagreement and push, here? Systems can be made so that they can be rolled back. More, systems that oversee life and death situations often have to act faster than a human can respond to them. I'm all for trying to get personal accountability to lead to a personal liability as much as we want. That, just isn't going to happen. So, if you want to change the manual page in question to be that systems should be reversible or "fixable", for whatever that means, sure. But "management decisions" are usually among the most reversible choices any company will ever make.

EtCepeyd 2y ago

> smart humans learned how to hide behind systems to avoid accountability And "systems" is more general in this sense than just technology. Consider stoning, and firing squads. Both were invented to remove individual responsibility.