4 ms·

I am not a fan of Elon, but his companies are run very capital efficient. So why would "fraud and waste" skyrocket under him?

macintux 2y ago
Corruption skyrockets when: - Safety checks are dismantled - Decisions are made at the whim of an executive - Executives surround themselves with sycophants
- throwitaway222 2y ago
  We have a worldwide internet service now. We have electric vehicles (something that would not have happened without TSLA) On the other side, the corruption is obvious with billions spent on 8 EV chargers.
  - arolihas 2y ago
    Why lie? https://x.com/SecretaryPete/status/1861214037435900357 https://x.com/SecretaryPete/status/1861214037435900357
  - svnt 2y ago
    Incredibly precarious world we live in where only one man could have enabled humanity to have EVs. Tell me more about this planet.
wahnfrieden 2y ago
They mean that he will divert or protect payments and credits going to his own businesses or partners. His interest in capital efficiency exists to generate profit for himself, not as a blessing for other orgs he provides as a gift. He did it with Twitter/X after he became owner of its profits. If treasury money is diverted to his private interests, that is waste and perhaps fraud. But to him it achieves the same end (personal profit) as capital efficiency of orgs under his own ownership, not just his control
stetrain 2y ago
You don't see the conflict of interest in one person both controlling how public funds are spent, and running private companies that may have those funds directed to benefit them? When Elon runs his companies, he is beholden to shareholders to use the company's resources effectively to generate and maintain value. Who is Elon beholden to when managing public funding and programs as an unelected non-official? Who will vote him out when he wasn't voted in? Who will revoke his confirmation when he was never confirmed?
- delabay 2y ago
  Trump is beholden to public support. Trump empowers EM. If EM loses public support and voters make their will known, the behavior will end. What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support.
  - asciimov 2y ago
    > Trump is beholden to public support. After the election he’s not. Only has to appease a handful of congress critters and a few wealthy people.
  - hackyhacky 2y ago
    > What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support. Things have been moving quite quickly, so this seems like a premature judgement. Can you cite a survey that shows that levels of support for disbanding USAID, for example; or taking over the treasury system; or "deleting" DirectFile?
    - ban-evader 2y ago
      Democrats and their surveys.
      - hackyhacky 2y ago
        > Democrats and their surveys. I am responding to a specific comment about public support. Besides surveys, what method would you suggest for accurately determining public support for particular policies? And leave your self-satisfied partisan snark out of it.
kennyloginz 2y ago
Look at the Boring company.
thomassmith65 2y ago
JFC, he named a quasi-governmental agency "DOGE"! He may as well have called it "The Department of Pump" And his buddy the president is happily sending the currency and stock markets up and down with his every idiotic tariff announcement. I wonder if the top man at DOGE is on the list of people who Trump tips off? Musk, Trump and half this administration are off-the-charts corrupt.
henrikschroder 2y ago
> So why would "fraud and waste" skyrocket under him? TSLA doubled in value in the month after the election, despite the financials of the company going down. The only reason for the increase in share price is because the market expects Musk to benefit from Trump's corruption, in the form of less oversight and more government subsidies.
trilobyte 2y ago
That's a very valid argument. Both SpaceX and Tesla are quite capital efficient. Maybe another angle to consider is what's being optimized for? What outcomes would be considered successful for these federal agencies? That's probably going to tell us more about whether the austerity measures that seem likely result in more efficient use of resources to create successful outcomes. One thing that seems worth think through more is whether the stated outcomes of those agencies is what's actually be optimized for, or whether those are suborned for personal gain by a few parties.
- zombiwoof 2y ago
  He is capital efficient because of foreign workers
  - ggreer 2y ago
    This is not correct. SpaceX is covered by ITAR and therefore cannot hire foreigners. Of the approximately 70,000 Tesla employees in the US, fewer than 2,000 are H-1B workers. The rest are US citizens or permanent residents. Tesla's manufacturing is much more vertically integrated than other auto manufacturers, so they rely almost entirely on their US factories to produce the cars they sell in the US. Other auto makers tend to do more manufacturing overseas to save on labor/safety/environmental costs, then do final assembly in the US to avoid tariffs.
- delabay 2y ago
  Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness. Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy.
  - exe34 2y ago
    > Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness. usually at the cost of the workers, environment, etc. > Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy they are designed for continuity because people die when they suddenly stop functioning.
acdha 2y ago
Tesla and SpaceX ran on government money. X is doing poorly enough that he’s suing former advertisers demanding that the courts force them buy ads. He now has significant influence over all of those things. Official government communications are only being released on X, incentivizing people to use it. The next NASA contract is going to be awarded by people who know their boss’ boss’ boss’ boss’ boss owes his political career to the owner of one of the bidders. Last quarter, a quarter of Tesla’s net income was unrealized Bitcoin profits – and he’s pushing the government to subsidize Bitcoin so it can get the kind of adoption it hasn’t been able to achieve on merit! This is why government ethics rules exist, and why high-level officials have public confirmation hearings. Even if he was incredibly scrupulous about not making decisions based on his own interests, it reeks of corruption and provides many avenues for potential abuse (e.g. what if China threatened to seize his factories unless he helped them get a better deal?). The federal employees he’s attacked have annual training reminding them that they can’t accept gifts over $20/year – and really shouldn’t even then – with consequences up to going to jail for a long time.
- saturn8601 2y ago
  Hold on there, Tesla has repeatedly shown an amazing ability to cut costs of their products while improving functionality/quality. Yes Tesla benefits from credits caused by other companies not meeting co2 targets set by the government but that wouldn't have been enough to save them from three near bankruptcies. And yes, they are still quite a ways away from being a leader in overall quality and consistency but yhey are executing extremly well in their R&D compared to other US car companies only to be outdone by the Chinese, certainly not any US company. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E As someone solidly on the left, this has really frustrated me to no end with the typical lefist sources I watch. In 2025 Facts really matter but all I see are facts being omitted to push a narrative (ie. Elon wasn't the founder of Tesla, Tesla/SpaceX is just alive because of the government subsidizes, Elon does not know anything about how to make a car/rocket). They cite his bad behavior or screwups in reforming Twitter but unless you have followed everything that Elon has accomplished/failed at you are lying by omission. This is especially dangerous now because by dismissing him as dumber than he really is, you are setting him up for surprise successes because people let their guard down. This is what I see on /r/fednews at how shocked they are over how fast he is moving at his slash and burn. You would have known this had you followed the whole Twitter saga very closely, the early days of Tesla where they ousted the original CEO for deliberately lying to the board, and the three near bankruptcies of the company where Elon pulled out hail mary after hail mary to save the company.
SmirkingRevenge 2y ago
Elon has gone off the reservation. Just based on his insane social media postings, he's either completely mad or is cynically pretending to be. Either way he is completely untrustworthy. At this point, it's probably the safer bet to assume Musk isn't the primary reason those companies are capital efficient. Maybe he runs companies like he plays video games. Someone else drives while he pretends to.

macintux 2y ago

Corruption skyrockets when: - Safety checks are dismantled - Decisions are made at the whim of an executive - Executives surround themselves with sycophants

throwitaway222 2y ago
We have a worldwide internet service now. We have electric vehicles (something that would not have happened without TSLA) On the other side, the corruption is obvious with billions spent on 8 EV chargers.
- arolihas 2y ago
  Why lie? https://x.com/SecretaryPete/status/1861214037435900357 https://x.com/SecretaryPete/status/1861214037435900357
- svnt 2y ago
  Incredibly precarious world we live in where only one man could have enabled humanity to have EVs. Tell me more about this planet.

wahnfrieden 2y ago

They mean that he will divert or protect payments and credits going to his own businesses or partners. His interest in capital efficiency exists to generate profit for himself, not as a blessing for other orgs he provides as a gift. He did it with Twitter/X after he became owner of its profits. If treasury money is diverted to his private interests, that is waste and perhaps fraud. But to him it achieves the same end (personal profit) as capital efficiency of orgs under his own ownership, not just his control

stetrain 2y ago

You don't see the conflict of interest in one person both controlling how public funds are spent, and running private companies that may have those funds directed to benefit them? When Elon runs his companies, he is beholden to shareholders to use the company's resources effectively to generate and maintain value. Who is Elon beholden to when managing public funding and programs as an unelected non-official? Who will vote him out when he wasn't voted in? Who will revoke his confirmation when he was never confirmed?

delabay 2y ago
Trump is beholden to public support. Trump empowers EM. If EM loses public support and voters make their will known, the behavior will end. What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support.
- asciimov 2y ago
  > Trump is beholden to public support. After the election he’s not. Only has to appease a handful of congress critters and a few wealthy people.
- hackyhacky 2y ago
  > What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support. Things have been moving quite quickly, so this seems like a premature judgement. Can you cite a survey that shows that levels of support for disbanding USAID, for example; or taking over the treasury system; or "deleting" DirectFile?
  - ban-evader 2y ago
    Democrats and their surveys.
    - hackyhacky 2y ago
      > Democrats and their surveys. I am responding to a specific comment about public support. Besides surveys, what method would you suggest for accurately determining public support for particular policies? And leave your self-satisfied partisan snark out of it.

kennyloginz 2y ago

Look at the Boring company.

thomassmith65 2y ago

JFC, he named a quasi-governmental agency "DOGE"! He may as well have called it "The Department of Pump" And his buddy the president is happily sending the currency and stock markets up and down with his every idiotic tariff announcement. I wonder if the top man at DOGE is on the list of people who Trump tips off? Musk, Trump and half this administration are off-the-charts corrupt.

henrikschroder 2y ago

> So why would "fraud and waste" skyrocket under him? TSLA doubled in value in the month after the election, despite the financials of the company going down. The only reason for the increase in share price is because the market expects Musk to benefit from Trump's corruption, in the form of less oversight and more government subsidies.

trilobyte 2y ago

That's a very valid argument. Both SpaceX and Tesla are quite capital efficient. Maybe another angle to consider is what's being optimized for? What outcomes would be considered successful for these federal agencies? That's probably going to tell us more about whether the austerity measures that seem likely result in more efficient use of resources to create successful outcomes. One thing that seems worth think through more is whether the stated outcomes of those agencies is what's actually be optimized for, or whether those are suborned for personal gain by a few parties.

zombiwoof 2y ago
He is capital efficient because of foreign workers
- ggreer 2y ago
  This is not correct. SpaceX is covered by ITAR and therefore cannot hire foreigners. Of the approximately 70,000 Tesla employees in the US, fewer than 2,000 are H-1B workers. The rest are US citizens or permanent residents. Tesla's manufacturing is much more vertically integrated than other auto manufacturers, so they rely almost entirely on their US factories to produce the cars they sell in the US. Other auto makers tend to do more manufacturing overseas to save on labor/safety/environmental costs, then do final assembly in the US to avoid tariffs.
delabay 2y ago
Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness. Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy.
- exe34 2y ago
  > Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness. usually at the cost of the workers, environment, etc. > Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy they are designed for continuity because people die when they suddenly stop functioning.

acdha 2y ago

Tesla and SpaceX ran on government money. X is doing poorly enough that he’s suing former advertisers demanding that the courts force them buy ads. He now has significant influence over all of those things. Official government communications are only being released on X, incentivizing people to use it. The next NASA contract is going to be awarded by people who know their boss’ boss’ boss’ boss’ boss owes his political career to the owner of one of the bidders. Last quarter, a quarter of Tesla’s net income was unrealized Bitcoin profits – and he’s pushing the government to subsidize Bitcoin so it can get the kind of adoption it hasn’t been able to achieve on merit! This is why government ethics rules exist, and why high-level officials have public confirmation hearings. Even if he was incredibly scrupulous about not making decisions based on his own interests, it reeks of corruption and provides many avenues for potential abuse (e.g. what if China threatened to seize his factories unless he helped them get a better deal?). The federal employees he’s attacked have annual training reminding them that they can’t accept gifts over $20/year – and really shouldn’t even then – with consequences up to going to jail for a long time.

saturn8601 2y ago
Hold on there, Tesla has repeatedly shown an amazing ability to cut costs of their products while improving functionality/quality. Yes Tesla benefits from credits caused by other companies not meeting co2 targets set by the government but that wouldn't have been enough to save them from three near bankruptcies. And yes, they are still quite a ways away from being a leader in overall quality and consistency but yhey are executing extremly well in their R&D compared to other US car companies only to be outdone by the Chinese, certainly not any US company. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E As someone solidly on the left, this has really frustrated me to no end with the typical lefist sources I watch. In 2025 Facts really matter but all I see are facts being omitted to push a narrative (ie. Elon wasn't the founder of Tesla, Tesla/SpaceX is just alive because of the government subsidizes, Elon does not know anything about how to make a car/rocket). They cite his bad behavior or screwups in reforming Twitter but unless you have followed everything that Elon has accomplished/failed at you are lying by omission. This is especially dangerous now because by dismissing him as dumber than he really is, you are setting him up for surprise successes because people let their guard down. This is what I see on /r/fednews at how shocked they are over how fast he is moving at his slash and burn. You would have known this had you followed the whole Twitter saga very closely, the early days of Tesla where they ousted the original CEO for deliberately lying to the board, and the three near bankruptcies of the company where Elon pulled out hail mary after hail mary to save the company.

SmirkingRevenge 2y ago

Elon has gone off the reservation. Just based on his insane social media postings, he's either completely mad or is cynically pretending to be. Either way he is completely untrustworthy. At this point, it's probably the safer bet to assume Musk isn't the primary reason those companies are capital efficient. Maybe he runs companies like he plays video games. Someone else drives while he pretends to.