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> Are such drastic action appropriate given the current state of the US? With the debt ceiling ever increasing, approaching a trillion dollars in interest per

by nomel 2y ago

> Are such drastic action appropriate given the current state of the US? With the debt ceiling ever increasing, approaching a trillion dollars in interest per year, nearing $6k/year per working individual, I would say the correct time to put any effort, whatsoever, into reducing spending, was 20 years ago. I think the fundamental problem is we lack adversarial systems within the government: it doesn't like to hurt itself. Trying to cut jobs/waste/find fraud is political/career suicide for anyone in government. Accountability requires a true adversary/"outsider". Should that be DOGE, or its current implementation? Probably not. Should the adversarial concept of DOGE exist? I would enjoy seeing arguments against the concept. It seems like it's severely needed.

skywhopper 2y ago
You are way underreacting to what’s going on here. This is not about saving money, or trying to cut waste or fraud. Elon Musk has been posting wild conspiracies on X to justify what he’s doing. But the actual changes are reactionary and political. Accountability is long gone if someone like Elon is in direct charge of what bills get paid. Fraud and waste will skyrocket in these conditions.
- preters 2y ago
  I am not a fan of Elon, but his companies are run very capital efficient. So why would "fraud and waste" skyrocket under him?
  - macintux 2y ago
    Corruption skyrockets when: - Safety checks are dismantled - Decisions are made at the whim of an executive - Executives surround themselves with sycophants
    - throwitaway222 2y ago
      We have a worldwide internet service now. We have electric vehicles (something that would not have happened without TSLA) On the other side, the corruption is obvious with billions spent on 8 EV chargers.
      - arolihas 2y ago
        Why lie? https://x.com/SecretaryPete/status/1861214037435900357 https://x.com/SecretaryPete/status/1861214037435900357
      - svnt 2y ago
        Incredibly precarious world we live in where only one man could have enabled humanity to have EVs. Tell me more about this planet.
  - wahnfrieden 2y ago
    They mean that he will divert or protect payments and credits going to his own businesses or partners. His interest in capital efficiency exists to generate profit for himself, not as a blessing for other orgs he provides as a gift. He did it with Twitter/X after he became owner of its profits. If treasury money is diverted to his private interests, that is waste and perhaps fraud. But to him it achieves the same end (personal profit) as capital efficiency of orgs under his own ownership, not just his control
  - stetrain 2y ago
    You don't see the conflict of interest in one person both controlling how public funds are spent, and running private companies that may have those funds directed to benefit them? When Elon runs his companies, he is beholden to shareholders to use the company's resources effectively to generate and maintain value. Who is Elon beholden to when managing public funding and programs as an unelected non-official? Who will vote him out when he wasn't voted in? Who will revoke his confirmation when he was never confirmed?
    - delabay 2y ago
      Trump is beholden to public support. Trump empowers EM. If EM loses public support and voters make their will known, the behavior will end. What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support.
      - asciimov 2y ago
        > Trump is beholden to public support. After the election he’s not. Only has to appease a handful of congress critters and a few wealthy people.
      - hackyhacky 2y ago
        > What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support. Things have been moving quite quickly, so this seems like a premature judgement. Can you cite a survey that shows that levels of support for disbanding USAID, for example; or taking over the treasury system; or "deleting" DirectFile?
        ban-evader 2y ago
        Democrats and their surveys.
        hackyhacky 2y ago
        > Democrats and their surveys. I am responding to a specific comment about public support. Besides surveys, what method would you suggest for accurately determining public support for particular policies? And leave your self-satisfied partisan snark out of it.
  - kennyloginz 2y ago
    Look at the Boring company.
  - thomassmith65 2y ago
    JFC, he named a quasi-governmental agency "DOGE"! He may as well have called it "The Department of Pump" And his buddy the president is happily sending the currency and stock markets up and down with his every idiotic tariff announcement. I wonder if the top man at DOGE is on the list of people who Trump tips off? Musk, Trump and half this administration are off-the-charts corrupt.
  - henrikschroder 2y ago
    > So why would "fraud and waste" skyrocket under him? TSLA doubled in value in the month after the election, despite the financials of the company going down. The only reason for the increase in share price is because the market expects Musk to benefit from Trump's corruption, in the form of less oversight and more government subsidies.
  - trilobyte 2y ago
    That's a very valid argument. Both SpaceX and Tesla are quite capital efficient. Maybe another angle to consider is what's being optimized for? What outcomes would be considered successful for these federal agencies? That's probably going to tell us more about whether the austerity measures that seem likely result in more efficient use of resources to create successful outcomes. One thing that seems worth think through more is whether the stated outcomes of those agencies is what's actually be optimized for, or whether those are suborned for personal gain by a few parties.
    - zombiwoof 2y ago
      He is capital efficient because of foreign workers
      - ggreer 2y ago
        This is not correct. SpaceX is covered by ITAR and therefore cannot hire foreigners. Of the approximately 70,000 Tesla employees in the US, fewer than 2,000 are H-1B workers. The rest are US citizens or permanent residents. Tesla's manufacturing is much more vertically integrated than other auto manufacturers, so they rely almost entirely on their US factories to produce the cars they sell in the US. Other auto makers tend to do more manufacturing overseas to save on labor/safety/environmental costs, then do final assembly in the US to avoid tariffs.
    - delabay 2y ago
      Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness. Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy.
      - exe34 2y ago
        > Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness. usually at the cost of the workers, environment, etc. > Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy they are designed for continuity because people die when they suddenly stop functioning.
  - acdha 2y ago
    Tesla and SpaceX ran on government money. X is doing poorly enough that he’s suing former advertisers demanding that the courts force them buy ads. He now has significant influence over all of those things. Official government communications are only being released on X, incentivizing people to use it. The next NASA contract is going to be awarded by people who know their boss’ boss’ boss’ boss’ boss owes his political career to the owner of one of the bidders. Last quarter, a quarter of Tesla’s net income was unrealized Bitcoin profits – and he’s pushing the government to subsidize Bitcoin so it can get the kind of adoption it hasn’t been able to achieve on merit! This is why government ethics rules exist, and why high-level officials have public confirmation hearings. Even if he was incredibly scrupulous about not making decisions based on his own interests, it reeks of corruption and provides many avenues for potential abuse (e.g. what if China threatened to seize his factories unless he helped them get a better deal?). The federal employees he’s attacked have annual training reminding them that they can’t accept gifts over $20/year – and really shouldn’t even then – with consequences up to going to jail for a long time.
    - saturn8601 2y ago
      Hold on there, Tesla has repeatedly shown an amazing ability to cut costs of their products while improving functionality/quality. Yes Tesla benefits from credits caused by other companies not meeting co2 targets set by the government but that wouldn't have been enough to save them from three near bankruptcies. And yes, they are still quite a ways away from being a leader in overall quality and consistency but yhey are executing extremly well in their R&D compared to other US car companies only to be outdone by the Chinese, certainly not any US company. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E As someone solidly on the left, this has really frustrated me to no end with the typical lefist sources I watch. In 2025 Facts really matter but all I see are facts being omitted to push a narrative (ie. Elon wasn't the founder of Tesla, Tesla/SpaceX is just alive because of the government subsidizes, Elon does not know anything about how to make a car/rocket). They cite his bad behavior or screwups in reforming Twitter but unless you have followed everything that Elon has accomplished/failed at you are lying by omission. This is especially dangerous now because by dismissing him as dumber than he really is, you are setting him up for surprise successes because people let their guard down. This is what I see on /r/fednews at how shocked they are over how fast he is moving at his slash and burn. You would have known this had you followed the whole Twitter saga very closely, the early days of Tesla where they ousted the original CEO for deliberately lying to the board, and the three near bankruptcies of the company where Elon pulled out hail mary after hail mary to save the company.
  - SmirkingRevenge 2y ago
    Elon has gone off the reservation. Just based on his insane social media postings, he's either completely mad or is cynically pretending to be. Either way he is completely untrustworthy. At this point, it's probably the safer bet to assume Musk isn't the primary reason those companies are capital efficient. Maybe he runs companies like he plays video games. Someone else drives while he pretends to.
wahnfrieden 2y ago
> Trying to cut jobs/waste/find fraud is political/career suicide for anyone in government US Government Accountability Office already existed to do this, without it being career suicide for those involved (at least until Trump began attempting to end it despite being nonpartisan)
- nomel 2y ago
  They exist to report an ever increasing number and list of actions each year. The GAO needs more teeth to be effective.
  - kristjansson 2y ago
    They also need a congress willing to increase revenues or decrease spending.
bdangubic 2y ago
start with the “defense” budget first, cut that by 95% and go from there… oh wait, that money is going to… :)
- pstuart 2y ago
  Indeed. There's undoubtably fat to cut all across the board but anybody who decries government spending and waste and doesn't include the DOD as part of that is a hypocrite at best.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    the fact that this comment I made was downvoted by more than 0 people tells you all you need to know about that :)
    - megaman821 2y ago
      I didn't downvote you, but tell how you would like to downsize the military's mission 95%. No overseas bases? No Coast Guard? No R&D? Just looking at a big number and saying "cut it" is easy, saying what to cut is hard.
      - pstuart 2y ago
        95% is overly aggressive, but that doesn't mean there's opportunities to trim fat. Addressing the DOD's accounting failures is a first step -- famously admitted to by Don Rumsfeld: Rumsfeld says, “Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track 2.3 trillion dollars in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building. Because it's stored on dozens of different technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible.” There's zero incentive to cut waste -- in fact the opposite. At the end of the fiscal year it's SOP to spend every last penny in the budget on anything they can, just to ensure their budget isn't cut. Afghanistan and Iraq cost the US ~$6T and we got nothing to show for it. There's got to be a reasonable center between "God bless the US Military" and "Shut it all down".
watwut 2y ago
There is about zero chance Trump and Musk will make debt smaller.
- XajniN 2y ago
  Why?
  - stouset 2y ago
    Look at the growth of the national debt during the last Trump presidency.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      And Bush, and Reagan. Find me a Republican president who did not increase the national debt.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-says-doge-probably-wont-find-2-trillion-federal-budget-cuts-rcna186924 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-say... https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-does-the-us-federal-government-spend/country/united-states/ https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-does-the-us-federal-go... You would have to cut entitlements if you're relying on cuts alone, and those require Congressional action to change. It's absolutely wild people actually believed Musk without spending a few minutes understanding the issue.
    - nomel 2y ago
      Is "not grow so fast" a worthy goal, by a department with an efficiency directive? $250 - $500 billion are lost to fraud, every year[1]. That's near 40% of social security spending. [1] https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-105833#:~:text=GAO%20estimated%20total%20direct%20annual,losses%20fell%20in%20this%20range. https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-105833#:~:text=GAO%20est...
derektank 2y ago
US debt as a percentage of GDP (i.e. our ability to pay off our debt) has basically remained static since COVID. I agree that the US requires a serious debate about our fiscal priorities and the appropriate levels of spending and taxation, particularly with automatic social security cuts looming. But it is nowhere near an emergency and fiscal decisions are the responsibility of Congress, not the executive.
- Aloisius 2y ago
  Surely taxes/fees represent our ability to pay off debt, not GDP?
  - SubiculumCode 2y ago
    We have a fiat currency. The only real limit to the ability is its effect on inflation.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      You're upgrading from a crisis that impoverishes a bunch of people to ... a crisis that impoverishes everyone. Unclear what the improvement was. And potentially literally how you get Hitlers running the government, inflation is one of those effects that breeds political instability.
      - SubiculumCode 2y ago
        I did not recommend an action. You are projecting.
        roenxi 2y ago
        You said we - possibly there is a flaw in my grammer. How should I be referring to this "we"? Isn't the "I" to "We" transform applied to "you" still "you"? I thought "you" could be plural for groups. I don't think going from "we" to "they" would be appropriate although in hindsight it might have been a better choice.
ChicagoDave 2y ago
Our national debt is directly related to the 45 years of regressive tax policy.
- mc32 2y ago
  What was the national debt to GDP ratio before income taxes were instituted? It wasn't even 10% between 1890 and 1910 --that's without the income tax.
  - ambicapter 2y ago
    Are you saying income taxes lead to an increase in the national debt?
    - mc32 2y ago
      You know how people borrow on future income?
      - Aloisius 2y ago
        We were doing that before income taxes. Hell, we were borrowing before we had states.
  - miltonlost 2y ago
    And life SUCKED then. Absolutely no labor rights, food filled with sawdust, income inequality, bank runs constantly, no retirement. The national debt increased because we increased the amount of the federal government does, it the income tax.
    - greatpatton 2y ago
      No healthcare, no public research to today's extent, no military etc. etc. Yes when your government is doing nothing normally it doesn't cost that much.
rurp 2y ago
Any remotely serious attempt to balance the budget will have to involve serious cuts to some or all of Defense, Medicare, and Social Security; along with tax increases, either new taxes or closing loopholes. Trump and Elon are completely uninterested in doing any of those things, and are in fact going to make them worse. Indiscriminately firing federal workers whose salaries will collectively make up maybe one tenth of one percent of the budget is not at all about reducing debt, that's just the thin justification they are using the destroy any independence and competence within the government that might get in the way of their looting and corruption. Anyone who thinks that Trump and Musk are serious about reducing the federal debt at this point aren't likely to be swayed by anything I say. But for anyone who genuinely believes that I hope you will look at what the national debt and deficit are right now, and then to check on them in a few years when both are dramatically worse. You will find that two of the most prominent bullshitters in the world are in fact bullshitting on this topic as well.
- mlinhares 2y ago
  Fast tracking into Banana Republic, Canada and Uruguay will remain as the last bastions of Democracy in the americas.
- throwitaway222 2y ago
  Easiest thing to do IMO is fund anyone that is over 18 that has paid into Social Security. Anyone younger - simple, reduce taxes to not include it. Phase that fucker out. Get rid of all but 10% of federal income tax. Also, make all black budget projects that involve underground alien bases public and move it all private, so Elon and other people can just directly invest in those instead of coming out of our taxes through the DOD.
- rewgs 2y ago
  > Any remotely serious attempt to balance the budget will have to involve serious cuts to some or all of Defense, Medicare, and Social Security; along with tax increases, either new taxes or closing loopholes. Trump and Elon are completely uninterested in doing any of those things This. Right. Here.
- Hikikomori 2y ago
kristjansson 2y ago
You’re describing the independent Inspectors General. That were summarily fired. Could they have had more power and independence? Sure. But there were real independent offices doing what you describe. The problem is EM and DOGE are equating “fraud and waste” to “I think it’s wasteful”, which is a judgement the adversarial auditor should not be allowed to make.
KennyBlanken 2y ago
And guess whose fault that deficit is? Answer: Bush and Trump. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primarily-responsible-for-the-increasing-debt-ratio/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primar... https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/the-2017-trump-tax-law-was-skewed-to-the-rich-expensive-and-failed-to-deliver https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/the-2017-trump-tax... https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/extending-trump-tax-cuts-would-add-46-trillion-to-the-deficit-cbo-finds https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/extend... He campaigned (first time) to reduce the national debt and instead exploded it by giving massive tax cuts to corporations and the wealthiest of the wealthy. https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/trump-plan-boosts-budget-deficits-by-7-5-trillion-double-harris-proposal-526effd2 https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/trump-plan-boosts-bud... Something something promises something kept?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
yodsanklai 2y ago
> I would say the correct time to put any effort, whatsoever, into reducing spending, was 20 years ago. Alternatively, it's possible to increase revenue.
stfp 2y ago
Haven't republicans been campaigning on reducing govt spending for like 50 years? Aren't other countries adversarial enough? I think these are made up concerns. By and large the US is dominant in the real world, and always will be given its size, location and cultural foundations. And that translates to being able to print and spent a large amount of money, which could be used to solve real world problems, such as: - climate change and the need to transition energy, transportation over time with some urgency - chronic housing shortage - education costs Instead they're focusing on fake problems and solutions that will make the real problems worse.
- AdieuToLogic 2y ago
  > Haven't republicans been campaigning on reducing govt spending for like 50 years? Not really. There is a political strategy Republicans have engaged during this time known as "Two Santas" which can explain it: First, the Two Santas strategy dictates, when Republicans control the White House they must spend money like a drunken Santa and cut taxes to run up the U.S. debt as far and as fast as possible. This produces three results: it stimulates the economy thus making people think that the GOP can produce a good economy; it raises the debt dramatically; and it makes people think that Republicans are the “tax-cut Santa Clauses.” Second, when a Democrat is in the White House, Republicans must scream about the national debt as loudly and frantically as possible, freaking out about how “our children will have to pay for it!” and “we have to cut spending to solve the crisis!” Shut down the government, crash the stock market, and damage US credibility around the world if necessary to stop Democrats from spending money. This will force the Democrats in power to cut their own social safety net programs and even Social Security, thus shooting their welfare-of-the-American-people Santa Claus right in the face.[0] 0 - http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas-strategy-gop-used-economic-scam-manipulate-americans-40-years/ http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas...
  - rukuu001 2y ago
    Ha! That's great. The opposite of that play is: Voted-in Conservatives: we are the party of fiscal responsibility. We shall reduce govt spending by running services into the ground. Voted-in Libs: We were voted in to undo all this f*kery... gotta spend those $$$ Conservatives: Didn't we say you can't trust those libs with the $$$? For the record - I think society needs both parties alternating in power to function properly. Either one in power forever is a mistake
UltraSane 2y ago
Strange how the national debt increases much faster when the president is a Republican. Republicans love to run the debt up when they are in power and then use it as a weapon when they are not.
JohnHaugeland 2y ago
The things being done make the deficit worse, not better
mycall 2y ago
The US government owes about 2.5 years of median salary to every American, but when an average work lifecycle is 40 years, it isn't too bad.
jimkleiber 2y ago
We have it: three branches of government. But the political branch loyalty has been superseded by political party loyalty and it breaks the system. What I think should happen is that the vast majority of legislators (Senators/Representatives) should be furious that the Executive branch is disregarding laws that they wrote themselves. And the justices should be furious that the Executive branch is disbeying their interpretation of the law.
iNic 2y ago
I am happy to cut government spending and increase government efficiency (obviously). I have so far not seen any evidence that DOGE is working is this direction. As I like to point out the marginal dollar spent on the IRS brings in ~$10 of revenue. If DOGE or Trump really cared about the deficit they would expand the IRS. They would take ease the burden of NEPA, but in the meantime increase the number of bureaucrats to make the process faster. They would reform the Paperwork Reduction Act. They would make it easier for government officials to handpick hires. On the policy side they would push for port automation. They would get rid of the Jones act. They could standardize and simplify the tax code (& get rid of loopholes like stepped up basis) Instead they are breaking random government websites, blocking & politicizing USAID (< 1% of budget), mass firing with seemingly no plan for running various orgs, trying to increase mass incarceration (?) and reinforcing captured markets (like TurboTax).

by nomel 2y ago

skywhopper 2y ago

You are way underreacting to what’s going on here. This is not about saving money, or trying to cut waste or fraud. Elon Musk has been posting wild conspiracies on X to justify what he’s doing. But the actual changes are reactionary and political. Accountability is long gone if someone like Elon is in direct charge of what bills get paid. Fraud and waste will skyrocket in these conditions.

preters 2y ago
I am not a fan of Elon, but his companies are run very capital efficient. So why would "fraud and waste" skyrocket under him?
- macintux 2y ago
  Corruption skyrockets when: - Safety checks are dismantled - Decisions are made at the whim of an executive - Executives surround themselves with sycophants
  - throwitaway222 2y ago
    We have a worldwide internet service now. We have electric vehicles (something that would not have happened without TSLA) On the other side, the corruption is obvious with billions spent on 8 EV chargers.
    - arolihas 2y ago
      Why lie? https://x.com/SecretaryPete/status/1861214037435900357 https://x.com/SecretaryPete/status/1861214037435900357
    - svnt 2y ago
      Incredibly precarious world we live in where only one man could have enabled humanity to have EVs. Tell me more about this planet.
- wahnfrieden 2y ago
  They mean that he will divert or protect payments and credits going to his own businesses or partners. His interest in capital efficiency exists to generate profit for himself, not as a blessing for other orgs he provides as a gift. He did it with Twitter/X after he became owner of its profits. If treasury money is diverted to his private interests, that is waste and perhaps fraud. But to him it achieves the same end (personal profit) as capital efficiency of orgs under his own ownership, not just his control
- stetrain 2y ago
  You don't see the conflict of interest in one person both controlling how public funds are spent, and running private companies that may have those funds directed to benefit them? When Elon runs his companies, he is beholden to shareholders to use the company's resources effectively to generate and maintain value. Who is Elon beholden to when managing public funding and programs as an unelected non-official? Who will vote him out when he wasn't voted in? Who will revoke his confirmation when he was never confirmed?
  - delabay 2y ago
    Trump is beholden to public support. Trump empowers EM. If EM loses public support and voters make their will known, the behavior will end. What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support.
    - asciimov 2y ago
      > Trump is beholden to public support. After the election he’s not. Only has to appease a handful of congress critters and a few wealthy people.
    - hackyhacky 2y ago
      > What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support. Things have been moving quite quickly, so this seems like a premature judgement. Can you cite a survey that shows that levels of support for disbanding USAID, for example; or taking over the treasury system; or "deleting" DirectFile?
      - ban-evader 2y ago
        Democrats and their surveys.
        hackyhacky 2y ago
        > Democrats and their surveys. I am responding to a specific comment about public support. Besides surveys, what method would you suggest for accurately determining public support for particular policies? And leave your self-satisfied partisan snark out of it.
- kennyloginz 2y ago
  Look at the Boring company.
- thomassmith65 2y ago
  JFC, he named a quasi-governmental agency "DOGE"! He may as well have called it "The Department of Pump" And his buddy the president is happily sending the currency and stock markets up and down with his every idiotic tariff announcement. I wonder if the top man at DOGE is on the list of people who Trump tips off? Musk, Trump and half this administration are off-the-charts corrupt.
- henrikschroder 2y ago
  > So why would "fraud and waste" skyrocket under him? TSLA doubled in value in the month after the election, despite the financials of the company going down. The only reason for the increase in share price is because the market expects Musk to benefit from Trump's corruption, in the form of less oversight and more government subsidies.
- trilobyte 2y ago
  That's a very valid argument. Both SpaceX and Tesla are quite capital efficient. Maybe another angle to consider is what's being optimized for? What outcomes would be considered successful for these federal agencies? That's probably going to tell us more about whether the austerity measures that seem likely result in more efficient use of resources to create successful outcomes. One thing that seems worth think through more is whether the stated outcomes of those agencies is what's actually be optimized for, or whether those are suborned for personal gain by a few parties.
  - zombiwoof 2y ago
    He is capital efficient because of foreign workers
    - ggreer 2y ago
      This is not correct. SpaceX is covered by ITAR and therefore cannot hire foreigners. Of the approximately 70,000 Tesla employees in the US, fewer than 2,000 are H-1B workers. The rest are US citizens or permanent residents. Tesla's manufacturing is much more vertically integrated than other auto manufacturers, so they rely almost entirely on their US factories to produce the cars they sell in the US. Other auto makers tend to do more manufacturing overseas to save on labor/safety/environmental costs, then do final assembly in the US to avoid tariffs.
  - delabay 2y ago
    Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness. Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy.
    - exe34 2y ago
      > Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness. usually at the cost of the workers, environment, etc. > Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy they are designed for continuity because people die when they suddenly stop functioning.
- acdha 2y ago
  Tesla and SpaceX ran on government money. X is doing poorly enough that he’s suing former advertisers demanding that the courts force them buy ads. He now has significant influence over all of those things. Official government communications are only being released on X, incentivizing people to use it. The next NASA contract is going to be awarded by people who know their boss’ boss’ boss’ boss’ boss owes his political career to the owner of one of the bidders. Last quarter, a quarter of Tesla’s net income was unrealized Bitcoin profits – and he’s pushing the government to subsidize Bitcoin so it can get the kind of adoption it hasn’t been able to achieve on merit! This is why government ethics rules exist, and why high-level officials have public confirmation hearings. Even if he was incredibly scrupulous about not making decisions based on his own interests, it reeks of corruption and provides many avenues for potential abuse (e.g. what if China threatened to seize his factories unless he helped them get a better deal?). The federal employees he’s attacked have annual training reminding them that they can’t accept gifts over $20/year – and really shouldn’t even then – with consequences up to going to jail for a long time.
  - saturn8601 2y ago
    Hold on there, Tesla has repeatedly shown an amazing ability to cut costs of their products while improving functionality/quality. Yes Tesla benefits from credits caused by other companies not meeting co2 targets set by the government but that wouldn't have been enough to save them from three near bankruptcies. And yes, they are still quite a ways away from being a leader in overall quality and consistency but yhey are executing extremly well in their R&D compared to other US car companies only to be outdone by the Chinese, certainly not any US company. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E As someone solidly on the left, this has really frustrated me to no end with the typical lefist sources I watch. In 2025 Facts really matter but all I see are facts being omitted to push a narrative (ie. Elon wasn't the founder of Tesla, Tesla/SpaceX is just alive because of the government subsidizes, Elon does not know anything about how to make a car/rocket). They cite his bad behavior or screwups in reforming Twitter but unless you have followed everything that Elon has accomplished/failed at you are lying by omission. This is especially dangerous now because by dismissing him as dumber than he really is, you are setting him up for surprise successes because people let their guard down. This is what I see on /r/fednews at how shocked they are over how fast he is moving at his slash and burn. You would have known this had you followed the whole Twitter saga very closely, the early days of Tesla where they ousted the original CEO for deliberately lying to the board, and the three near bankruptcies of the company where Elon pulled out hail mary after hail mary to save the company.
- SmirkingRevenge 2y ago
  Elon has gone off the reservation. Just based on his insane social media postings, he's either completely mad or is cynically pretending to be. Either way he is completely untrustworthy. At this point, it's probably the safer bet to assume Musk isn't the primary reason those companies are capital efficient. Maybe he runs companies like he plays video games. Someone else drives while he pretends to.

wahnfrieden 2y ago

> Trying to cut jobs/waste/find fraud is political/career suicide for anyone in government US Government Accountability Office already existed to do this, without it being career suicide for those involved (at least until Trump began attempting to end it despite being nonpartisan)

nomel 2y ago
They exist to report an ever increasing number and list of actions each year. The GAO needs more teeth to be effective.
- kristjansson 2y ago
  They also need a congress willing to increase revenues or decrease spending.

bdangubic 2y ago

start with the “defense” budget first, cut that by 95% and go from there… oh wait, that money is going to… :)

pstuart 2y ago
Indeed. There's undoubtably fat to cut all across the board but anybody who decries government spending and waste and doesn't include the DOD as part of that is a hypocrite at best.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  the fact that this comment I made was downvoted by more than 0 people tells you all you need to know about that :)
  - megaman821 2y ago
    I didn't downvote you, but tell how you would like to downsize the military's mission 95%. No overseas bases? No Coast Guard? No R&D? Just looking at a big number and saying "cut it" is easy, saying what to cut is hard.
    - pstuart 2y ago
      95% is overly aggressive, but that doesn't mean there's opportunities to trim fat. Addressing the DOD's accounting failures is a first step -- famously admitted to by Don Rumsfeld: Rumsfeld says, “Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track 2.3 trillion dollars in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building. Because it's stored on dozens of different technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible.” There's zero incentive to cut waste -- in fact the opposite. At the end of the fiscal year it's SOP to spend every last penny in the budget on anything they can, just to ensure their budget isn't cut. Afghanistan and Iraq cost the US ~$6T and we got nothing to show for it. There's got to be a reasonable center between "God bless the US Military" and "Shut it all down".

watwut 2y ago

There is about zero chance Trump and Musk will make debt smaller.

XajniN 2y ago
Why?
- stouset 2y ago
  Look at the growth of the national debt during the last Trump presidency.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    And Bush, and Reagan. Find me a Republican president who did not increase the national debt.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-says-doge-probably-wont-find-2-trillion-federal-budget-cuts-rcna186924 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-say... https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-does-the-us-federal-government-spend/country/united-states/ https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-does-the-us-federal-go... You would have to cut entitlements if you're relying on cuts alone, and those require Congressional action to change. It's absolutely wild people actually believed Musk without spending a few minutes understanding the issue.
  - nomel 2y ago
    Is "not grow so fast" a worthy goal, by a department with an efficiency directive? $250 - $500 billion are lost to fraud, every year[1]. That's near 40% of social security spending. [1] https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-105833#:~:text=GAO%20estimated%20total%20direct%20annual,losses%20fell%20in%20this%20range. https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-105833#:~:text=GAO%20est...

derektank 2y ago

US debt as a percentage of GDP (i.e. our ability to pay off our debt) has basically remained static since COVID. I agree that the US requires a serious debate about our fiscal priorities and the appropriate levels of spending and taxation, particularly with automatic social security cuts looming. But it is nowhere near an emergency and fiscal decisions are the responsibility of Congress, not the executive.

Aloisius 2y ago
Surely taxes/fees represent our ability to pay off debt, not GDP?
- SubiculumCode 2y ago
  We have a fiat currency. The only real limit to the ability is its effect on inflation.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    You're upgrading from a crisis that impoverishes a bunch of people to ... a crisis that impoverishes everyone. Unclear what the improvement was. And potentially literally how you get Hitlers running the government, inflation is one of those effects that breeds political instability.
    - SubiculumCode 2y ago
      I did not recommend an action. You are projecting.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        You said we - possibly there is a flaw in my grammer. How should I be referring to this "we"? Isn't the "I" to "We" transform applied to "you" still "you"? I thought "you" could be plural for groups. I don't think going from "we" to "they" would be appropriate although in hindsight it might have been a better choice.

ChicagoDave 2y ago

Our national debt is directly related to the 45 years of regressive tax policy.

mc32 2y ago
What was the national debt to GDP ratio before income taxes were instituted? It wasn't even 10% between 1890 and 1910 --that's without the income tax.
- ambicapter 2y ago
  Are you saying income taxes lead to an increase in the national debt?
  - mc32 2y ago
    You know how people borrow on future income?
    - Aloisius 2y ago
      We were doing that before income taxes. Hell, we were borrowing before we had states.
- miltonlost 2y ago
  And life SUCKED then. Absolutely no labor rights, food filled with sawdust, income inequality, bank runs constantly, no retirement. The national debt increased because we increased the amount of the federal government does, it the income tax.
  - greatpatton 2y ago
    No healthcare, no public research to today's extent, no military etc. etc. Yes when your government is doing nothing normally it doesn't cost that much.

rurp 2y ago

Any remotely serious attempt to balance the budget will have to involve serious cuts to some or all of Defense, Medicare, and Social Security; along with tax increases, either new taxes or closing loopholes. Trump and Elon are completely uninterested in doing any of those things, and are in fact going to make them worse. Indiscriminately firing federal workers whose salaries will collectively make up maybe one tenth of one percent of the budget is not at all about reducing debt, that's just the thin justification they are using the destroy any independence and competence within the government that might get in the way of their looting and corruption. Anyone who thinks that Trump and Musk are serious about reducing the federal debt at this point aren't likely to be swayed by anything I say. But for anyone who genuinely believes that I hope you will look at what the national debt and deficit are right now, and then to check on them in a few years when both are dramatically worse. You will find that two of the most prominent bullshitters in the world are in fact bullshitting on this topic as well.

mlinhares 2y ago
Fast tracking into Banana Republic, Canada and Uruguay will remain as the last bastions of Democracy in the americas.
throwitaway222 2y ago
Easiest thing to do IMO is fund anyone that is over 18 that has paid into Social Security. Anyone younger - simple, reduce taxes to not include it. Phase that fucker out. Get rid of all but 10% of federal income tax. Also, make all black budget projects that involve underground alien bases public and move it all private, so Elon and other people can just directly invest in those instead of coming out of our taxes through the DOD.
rewgs 2y ago
> Any remotely serious attempt to balance the budget will have to involve serious cuts to some or all of Defense, Medicare, and Social Security; along with tax increases, either new taxes or closing loopholes. Trump and Elon are completely uninterested in doing any of those things This. Right. Here.
Hikikomori 2y ago

kristjansson 2y ago

You’re describing the independent Inspectors General. That were summarily fired. Could they have had more power and independence? Sure. But there were real independent offices doing what you describe. The problem is EM and DOGE are equating “fraud and waste” to “I think it’s wasteful”, which is a judgement the adversarial auditor should not be allowed to make.

KennyBlanken 2y ago

And guess whose fault that deficit is? Answer: Bush and Trump. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primarily-responsible-for-the-increasing-debt-ratio/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primar... https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/the-2017-trump-tax-law-was-skewed-to-the-rich-expensive-and-failed-to-deliver https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/the-2017-trump-tax... https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/extending-trump-tax-cuts-would-add-46-trillion-to-the-deficit-cbo-finds https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/extend... He campaigned (first time) to reduce the national debt and instead exploded it by giving massive tax cuts to corporations and the wealthiest of the wealthy. https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/trump-plan-boosts-budget-deficits-by-7-5-trillion-double-harris-proposal-526effd2 https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/trump-plan-boosts-bud... Something something promises something kept?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

yodsanklai 2y ago

> I would say the correct time to put any effort, whatsoever, into reducing spending, was 20 years ago. Alternatively, it's possible to increase revenue.

stfp 2y ago

Haven't republicans been campaigning on reducing govt spending for like 50 years? Aren't other countries adversarial enough? I think these are made up concerns. By and large the US is dominant in the real world, and always will be given its size, location and cultural foundations. And that translates to being able to print and spent a large amount of money, which could be used to solve real world problems, such as: - climate change and the need to transition energy, transportation over time with some urgency - chronic housing shortage - education costs Instead they're focusing on fake problems and solutions that will make the real problems worse.

AdieuToLogic 2y ago
> Haven't republicans been campaigning on reducing govt spending for like 50 years? Not really. There is a political strategy Republicans have engaged during this time known as "Two Santas" which can explain it: First, the Two Santas strategy dictates, when Republicans control the White House they must spend money like a drunken Santa and cut taxes to run up the U.S. debt as far and as fast as possible. This produces three results: it stimulates the economy thus making people think that the GOP can produce a good economy; it raises the debt dramatically; and it makes people think that Republicans are the “tax-cut Santa Clauses.” Second, when a Democrat is in the White House, Republicans must scream about the national debt as loudly and frantically as possible, freaking out about how “our children will have to pay for it!” and “we have to cut spending to solve the crisis!” Shut down the government, crash the stock market, and damage US credibility around the world if necessary to stop Democrats from spending money. This will force the Democrats in power to cut their own social safety net programs and even Social Security, thus shooting their welfare-of-the-American-people Santa Claus right in the face.[0] 0 - http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas-strategy-gop-used-economic-scam-manipulate-americans-40-years/ http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas...
- rukuu001 2y ago
  Ha! That's great. The opposite of that play is: Voted-in Conservatives: we are the party of fiscal responsibility. We shall reduce govt spending by running services into the ground. Voted-in Libs: We were voted in to undo all this f*kery... gotta spend those $$$ Conservatives: Didn't we say you can't trust those libs with the $$$? For the record - I think society needs both parties alternating in power to function properly. Either one in power forever is a mistake

UltraSane 2y ago

Strange how the national debt increases much faster when the president is a Republican. Republicans love to run the debt up when they are in power and then use it as a weapon when they are not.

JohnHaugeland 2y ago

The things being done make the deficit worse, not better

mycall 2y ago

The US government owes about 2.5 years of median salary to every American, but when an average work lifecycle is 40 years, it isn't too bad.

jimkleiber 2y ago

We have it: three branches of government. But the political branch loyalty has been superseded by political party loyalty and it breaks the system. What I think should happen is that the vast majority of legislators (Senators/Representatives) should be furious that the Executive branch is disregarding laws that they wrote themselves. And the justices should be furious that the Executive branch is disbeying their interpretation of the law.

iNic 2y ago

I am happy to cut government spending and increase government efficiency (obviously). I have so far not seen any evidence that DOGE is working is this direction. As I like to point out the marginal dollar spent on the IRS brings in ~$10 of revenue. If DOGE or Trump really cared about the deficit they would expand the IRS. They would take ease the burden of NEPA, but in the meantime increase the number of bureaucrats to make the process faster. They would reform the Paperwork Reduction Act. They would make it easier for government officials to handpick hires. On the policy side they would push for port automation. They would get rid of the Jones act. They could standardize and simplify the tax code (& get rid of loopholes like stepped up basis) Instead they are breaking random government websites, blocking & politicizing USAID (< 1% of budget), mass firing with seemingly no plan for running various orgs, trying to increase mass incarceration (?) and reinforcing captured markets (like TurboTax).