4 ms·

Hot take: Yet another case of wrongdoing that could have been prevented if the U.S. (or its states) held a canonical registry of people. If you couldn’t take o

by Jolter 2y ago

Hot take: Yet another case of wrongdoing that could have been prevented if the U.S. (or its states) held a canonical registry of people. If you couldn’t take out an ID card using a birth certificate and proof of residence (electricity bill etc weak measures), maybe this con would never have begun in the first place. Almost every developed nation in the world has this problem solved.

rtkwe 2y ago
Where has actually solved identity theft? I'm not aware of any country where it's impossible.
- Jolter 2y ago
  Strawman. Nobody claimed it was impossible. My point is that this new item (and others) make identity theft seem so extremely easy in the U.S. You just have to be determined. Doesn't take any particular skill to forge an electricity bill, doesn't take any skill to give someone else's social security number (which many apparent morons presume are secret), etc. By moving the posts from "trivial" to "somewhat challenging", I think the U.S. would be better off. As an example: If I wanted to assume a new identity in Sweden, to get rid of my criminal history, I'd have to make a very convincing fake I.D. card, and make sure to find a "victim" who is not going to sound the alarm when they notice. Basically, as soon as you register their name on your address, a confirmation letter will be sent to that person, which makes it so they can dispute it. You could probably get away with it if you can find someone who moved abroad and forgot to notify the authorities. Even then, you'd have a really hard time getting a new passport or ID card in their name. It might work if you look a lot like them, and can drag their spouse, parent or sibling to the police station and have them vouch for you (with a valid ID card). I admit it's not impossible! But it certainly is not a thing that you ever hear about on the news.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    > Basically, as soon as you register their name on your address, a confirmation letter will be sent to that person, which makes it so they can dispute it. That doesn't seem relevant to the homeless man in question.
    - Jolter 2y ago
      You’re right, that’s one vulnerability in the system. I don’t know how common it is for someone to want to impersonate a homeless person, though, considering in Sweden you’d probably have to pay up that homeless person’s debt… Ok, I’m slightly kidding here, but really this kind of long con is not a common mode of identity fraud in Scandinavia, probably because it’s harder to get away with. The more common identify fraud here would be to assume the identity of someone with a stable economy and then try to take out payday loans in their name. Which a homeless person would be declined for, of course. It gets rather involved and usually involves phishing the victim into signing something malicious using a digital ID. Not to mention no bank would agree to pay it out in cash. So it requires not only determination but skill as well.
      - jacobgkau 2y ago
        So you just spent three paragraphs hand-waving away the exact situation this article was about. "I don't know how common it is... not really a common mode of identity fraud... the more common identity fraud here would be..." It was a homeless victim in this article. It seems like the improvements you're suggesting are entirely off-topic if you admit they wouldn't have helped here.
        Jolter 2y ago
        They would absolutely have helped! If there were, for instance, a proper way to validate what someone looked like, for instance if the national ID database had been consulted for photos of the person when issuing a new ID, then probably they would have realized these two men look nothing alike.
  - CRConrad 2y ago
    > You could probably get away with it if you can find someone who moved abroad and forgot to notify the authorities. Even then, you'd have a really hard time getting a new passport or ID card in their name. And if they'd moved to e.g. Finland[1], it wouldn't even have mattered if they'd forgot that -- the Finnish (tax etc) authorities would inform their Swedish counterparts when they register as a resident of their new country. Source: Got a letter from Swedish Riksskatteverket (tax authority) after I registered at Helsinki Maistraatti (municipal registrar) telling me I'd been moved to "Emigrated" status, back in 1995 when I moved here. [1]: Probably all the Nordic countries before then, all EU ones now.
freehorse 2y ago
What would a "canonical registry" include? Like, biometrics of every citizen? I am from a european country, and when I had to renew my id card I had to prove my identity through answering questions about a part of my family tree my immediate family and I have been no-contact since ever. I had no idea about the names of these people, and the police officer was visibly frustrated. Nothing bad happened in the end but I can imagine if I was acting weird it could have had, because the whole id process was actually a failure. My experience with other european countries is not much different either in terms of the process, likeprevious residence addresses, people you live with or similar info they have on you, most of which is not very private. Or a witness to testify which actually is the easiest. That's nothing that would have prevented a case like this on its own, without further investigations.
- Jolter 2y ago
  Well, it’s not mandatory to take out a passport or ID card anywhere that I’m aware. And perhaps a photo ID database would have been as far as I’d be willing to stretch when it comes to storing biometrics. But you do realize that even the government of each state does not know who lives at what address? The only exception being around the time of each census. It’s a miracle people can get their mail in the US (and I know a whole neighborhood on Hawaii that can’t!)
  - rtkwe 2y ago
    > It’s a miracle people can get their mail in the US (and I know a whole neighborhood on Hawaii that can’t!) Only when you look at it as sending to a person. Really what you do is send it to an address the post office doesn't get a damn what you put above the street address, they just deliver it to the specified location.
    - Jolter 2y ago
      Yeah, that's how a post office has to operate under those circumstances. It seems to work decently, for the most part. In my country (Sweden), the post office is able to forward mail to your new address after you move, because they can look up your address in the public registry. (Of course, they charge a fee for this but it's quite small.)

by Jolter 2y ago

rtkwe 2y ago

Where has actually solved identity theft? I'm not aware of any country where it's impossible.

Jolter 2y ago
Strawman. Nobody claimed it was impossible. My point is that this new item (and others) make identity theft seem so extremely easy in the U.S. You just have to be determined. Doesn't take any particular skill to forge an electricity bill, doesn't take any skill to give someone else's social security number (which many apparent morons presume are secret), etc. By moving the posts from "trivial" to "somewhat challenging", I think the U.S. would be better off. As an example: If I wanted to assume a new identity in Sweden, to get rid of my criminal history, I'd have to make a very convincing fake I.D. card, and make sure to find a "victim" who is not going to sound the alarm when they notice. Basically, as soon as you register their name on your address, a confirmation letter will be sent to that person, which makes it so they can dispute it. You could probably get away with it if you can find someone who moved abroad and forgot to notify the authorities. Even then, you'd have a really hard time getting a new passport or ID card in their name. It might work if you look a lot like them, and can drag their spouse, parent or sibling to the police station and have them vouch for you (with a valid ID card). I admit it's not impossible! But it certainly is not a thing that you ever hear about on the news.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > Basically, as soon as you register their name on your address, a confirmation letter will be sent to that person, which makes it so they can dispute it. That doesn't seem relevant to the homeless man in question.
  - Jolter 2y ago
    You’re right, that’s one vulnerability in the system. I don’t know how common it is for someone to want to impersonate a homeless person, though, considering in Sweden you’d probably have to pay up that homeless person’s debt… Ok, I’m slightly kidding here, but really this kind of long con is not a common mode of identity fraud in Scandinavia, probably because it’s harder to get away with. The more common identify fraud here would be to assume the identity of someone with a stable economy and then try to take out payday loans in their name. Which a homeless person would be declined for, of course. It gets rather involved and usually involves phishing the victim into signing something malicious using a digital ID. Not to mention no bank would agree to pay it out in cash. So it requires not only determination but skill as well.
    - jacobgkau 2y ago
      So you just spent three paragraphs hand-waving away the exact situation this article was about. "I don't know how common it is... not really a common mode of identity fraud... the more common identity fraud here would be..." It was a homeless victim in this article. It seems like the improvements you're suggesting are entirely off-topic if you admit they wouldn't have helped here.
      - Jolter 2y ago
        They would absolutely have helped! If there were, for instance, a proper way to validate what someone looked like, for instance if the national ID database had been consulted for photos of the person when issuing a new ID, then probably they would have realized these two men look nothing alike.
- CRConrad 2y ago
  > You could probably get away with it if you can find someone who moved abroad and forgot to notify the authorities. Even then, you'd have a really hard time getting a new passport or ID card in their name. And if they'd moved to e.g. Finland[1], it wouldn't even have mattered if they'd forgot that -- the Finnish (tax etc) authorities would inform their Swedish counterparts when they register as a resident of their new country. Source: Got a letter from Swedish Riksskatteverket (tax authority) after I registered at Helsinki Maistraatti (municipal registrar) telling me I'd been moved to "Emigrated" status, back in 1995 when I moved here. [1]: Probably all the Nordic countries before then, all EU ones now.

freehorse 2y ago

What would a "canonical registry" include? Like, biometrics of every citizen? I am from a european country, and when I had to renew my id card I had to prove my identity through answering questions about a part of my family tree my immediate family and I have been no-contact since ever. I had no idea about the names of these people, and the police officer was visibly frustrated. Nothing bad happened in the end but I can imagine if I was acting weird it could have had, because the whole id process was actually a failure. My experience with other european countries is not much different either in terms of the process, likeprevious residence addresses, people you live with or similar info they have on you, most of which is not very private. Or a witness to testify which actually is the easiest. That's nothing that would have prevented a case like this on its own, without further investigations.

Jolter 2y ago
Well, it’s not mandatory to take out a passport or ID card anywhere that I’m aware. And perhaps a photo ID database would have been as far as I’d be willing to stretch when it comes to storing biometrics. But you do realize that even the government of each state does not know who lives at what address? The only exception being around the time of each census. It’s a miracle people can get their mail in the US (and I know a whole neighborhood on Hawaii that can’t!)
- rtkwe 2y ago
  > It’s a miracle people can get their mail in the US (and I know a whole neighborhood on Hawaii that can’t!) Only when you look at it as sending to a person. Really what you do is send it to an address the post office doesn't get a damn what you put above the street address, they just deliver it to the specified location.
  - Jolter 2y ago
    Yeah, that's how a post office has to operate under those circumstances. It seems to work decently, for the most part. In my country (Sweden), the post office is able to forward mail to your new address after you move, because they can look up your address in the public registry. (Of course, they charge a fee for this but it's quite small.)