6 ms·

It's not 'emotional labour', it's kin work

61 points by bobbiechen 2y ago

hkt 2y ago
A bit nitpicky, but I've noticed the same thing, especially in humanities and social science people who ought to know the difference better. Her point on dropping the ball is interesting, too: I'm a chronic ball dropper for christmas stuff, and mostly manage it by maintaining sane relationships the rest of the time. It would really be quite nice if other people took the same approach, not least because it is increasingly well understood how much people (women) despise this kind of work. Who wants to sit down to an elaborate christmas dinner planned and prepped by someone who clearly doesn't want to do it? A better festive time could be negotiated fairly easily between everyone if the pretence of obligation was dropped. Then maybe the other stuff ends up feeling easier.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
ahwelitif 2y ago
Maintaining your social life indeed takes real work and effort. Somehow, though, I suspect that insinuating I need extra rest after giving my emotional labor to "plan a night out with the guys" wouldn't go over so well with my wife. I think there is further nuance to be had here.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  I mean, the article is saying that planning a night out isn't "emotional labor", so you agree. They are saying it's kinwork
- enragedcacti 2y ago
  Once such nuance is that maintaining familial relationships is a shared responsibility whereas planning a night out with the guys is not. That said, I don't know your wife but I bet if you said "Bob is getting divorced and needed support but it was brutal so I just I need some alone time", she'd probably be receptive to that.
- dymk 2y ago
  Luckly, that's not what the author was suggesting. Now, if you were tasked with planning a dinner party, getting groceries, and cooking for a group of family friends, then asking for a break afterwards would be reasonable.
- nineplay 2y ago
  I think the nuance is between you and your wife and it is truly a pity if you feel you can't tell her that you need a rest. The other nuance is the continuing pressure on men to show no weakness. I keep hoping for some change here but I feel the pressure only increases and is to some degree self-reinforcing. If you aren't willing to admit weakness even to your life partner than what chance is there that other men will.
  - hkt 2y ago
    > I think the nuance is between you and your wife and it is truly a pity if you feel you can't tell her that you need a rest Realistically, male weakness is repugnant to a lot of women. It is a huge gamble for anyone to show any whatsoever, as it is often construed as laziness. Feminism does a great job of understanding and articulating women's problems, but hasn't got much to say about how heterosexual women can often perpetuate some of the worst elements of masculinity.
    - nineplay 2y ago
      There's 'a lot of women' and then there's the poster's life partner. If he can't express his feelings to her than he's got bigger problems than 'kin work. Feminism has its ups and downs but its not going to be able to fix every gender related problem everywhere. Change begins at home.
- balfirevic 2y ago
  > Somehow, though, I suspect that insinuating I need extra rest after giving my emotional labor to "plan a night out with the guys" wouldn't go over so well with my wife. Why not? That's perfectly reasonable thing to do.
- michaelt 2y ago
  > Somehow, though, I suspect that insinuating I need extra rest after giving my emotional labor to "plan a night out with the guys" wouldn't go over so well with my wife. In my culture, events with the guys seems much easier to plan. The guys will have a great time even if I only feed them takeaway pizza and beer. Barbecue hasn't been assembled? They'll assemble it, light it, do the cooking, and do most of the clean-up too. If we go out for food, we can walk into pretty much any restaurant, we all have money and we'll all eat anything. Staying the night? The guys will show up with camp beds and sleeping bags if they need to. For the first event I had a backup barbecue prepared, in case the halal guy and the vegetarian guy wanted to keep their stuff separate - turns out no worries, just do our stuff first. And everyone has a great time! This counts as absolutely crushing it, in terms of planning events with the guys, in my society. On the other hand, big family events? There'll be a giant spread of home cooked food. Vegetarian options, vegan options, gluten-free options. Special food for the fussy nephew who'll only eat baked beans. Some people will show up with four different cakes. Some people will have baked practice cakes in advance to test out the new recipe before the big day.
bko 2y ago
> The benefits to keeping up this ‘emotional tone road show’ as Hochschild calls it, was obvious to their profit-seeking corporate employers. But the costs to the employees themselves were more hidden. Their emotional labour, according to Hochschild, was leaving employees dangerously alienated from their own feelings and perilously at risk of burn out. In the early 1980s, Hochschild estimated that a third of jobs made ‘substantial demands for emotional labour’; today she thinks that figure is more like half. Perhaps the most notorious example recently is the ‘enforced happiness’ at coffee chain Pret A Manger, which requires its servers to have rapport with one another, and enthusiasm for their (low-paid) jobs. I don't get this. What's the alternative? A customer service job where you can be rude? There are cultural norms which we all have to obey in a workplace. The classic example is don't talk about politics or religion. Others include don't be rude, don't heat up smelly food in the microwave, keep a clean workspace, don't yell or put people down, don't make unwarranted advances to coworkers, etc. Just control your emotions regardless of where you're working. I admit that the extra work around house maintenance usually born by women (e.g. birthdays, keeping stock of things, etc) is difficult and goes unappreciated. But I don't think extending that to "I must control my emotions in the workplace" is right.
- throw4847285 2y ago
  Hochschild's point in The Managed Heart was that many jobs place outsized demands on workers' emotional lives, beyond workplace names of politeness designed to reduce conflict. There is a massive difference between being asked not to be rude to your coworkers, which is a basic norm of politeness in our society, and having people pleasing become inextricably linked with one's ability to earn a living.
- AdamH12113 2y ago
  > What's the alternative? A customer service job where you can be rude? A customer service job where you can be merely polite and professional without also having to be artificially cheerful and enthusiastic. Or, if you must put on a show, at least be paid appropriately for the extra work you're doing.
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
parpfish 2y ago
discussions about emotional labor/kinwork always talk quite a bit about the gender imbalance in where this labor traditionally comes from. but as a dude living with a chronically depressed spouse, i just want to take a second to tell let the men who end up taking on this burden that they're not alone.
- ravishi 2y ago
  I can understand that I'm not alone. It's reasonable to think so. I cannot find support anywhere, though. Which makes me feel isolated. I have nobody to share my struggles with. No place to vent. No space to process it. Only thing that has helped is therapy. After so many years I'm craving a group, though.
  - ahwelitif 2y ago
    Hey man, its ok, here is an e-hug <3
AnotherGoodName 2y ago
Can I give a polite viewpoint that two people often have the bar set elsewhere when it comes to these sorts of things. The bar isn’t higher or lower. It’s in a completely different place. It’s unfair to claim ‘men don’t do as much to reach the bar we have over here’ since we have completely different bars in different locations. Eg. Based on experience many people tend not to send Christmas cards. They can’t understand the purpose. That’s not inherently terrible. It’s just a different viewpoint. On the other hand there’s people that couldn’t understand not sending cards. When people form a couple there’s many things like this where one part of the couple has the bar set in a completely different location. Which I think is ok. It’s ok for one half of the couple to not do as much card writing. The workload of a relationship should be split evenly overall but if one places waaaay more importance on a particular aspect than the other it’s ok for that one to bear more of the load in that case.
- tantalor 2y ago
  It's all about FOMO.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  It's apples and oranges. Subjective Theory of Value is the only reliable economic model here.
- agieocean 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
    This is way out of line. Where on earth did GP deny it's realness? Read the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - agieocean 2y ago
      [flagged]
resource_waste 2y ago
I didn't understand the connection between 'doing dishes' and 'buying gifts/remembering birthdays'. I 100% do the dishes. I am terrible at remembering birthdays. Mixing the two did a disservice and I genuinely can't understand the point.
- honkycat 2y ago
  we've banned gifts for adults and we just go out to eat anymore. We don't need the junk and we are sick of stressing out about buying gifts.
  - spunker540 2y ago
    Call me a grinch— but I can’t stand gifts, giving or receiving! I don’t feel comfortable telling my friends and family this fact however…
readthenotes1 2y ago
How much if the "kin work" is self imposed torture ? I have seen multiple instances where the stress degraded everyone's experience, and/or simply wasn't appreciated or valued by the intended recipients because they would have been just as satisfied by making their own sandwich. And sometimes, I've seen people dread the experience because of the required hours at the dinner table when they would rather be doing something less stifling. That is, I wonder how much of this can work is actually an example of the Abilene paradox https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox
- perrygeo 2y ago
  Everyone on my dad's side of the family gathered for xmas each year - maybe 20 of us. Full house. And everybody felt obliged to buy personal presents for everyone else. Finally someone stood up and said "Instead of everyone stressing about buying twenty cheap gifts, how about a secret santa where everyone gets one nice gift". Made the holidays less stressful for everyone. It just hadn't occurred to us - we bought into the obligate gift ritual without thinking.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
HPsquared 2y ago
The people organising the Christmas events etc do so because they really value that. The people who don't put effort into that kind of thing.. those are the ones who don't really care about it as much. People have different interests and values, and it's not a strict gender role thing either. It's just revealed preference.
stevage 2y ago
> People often call this work of arranging gatherings, preparing seasonal meals and giving gifts ‘emotional labour’. I have never heard anyone use the term emotional labour in that way.
- philipkglass 2y ago
  A very precise word or phrase may over time get broadened in usage to the point of incoherence. I have seen "gaslighting" broadened to include "having a contrary opinion" and "emotional labor" broadened to include "writing items on the grocery list."
  - fragmede 2y ago
    and enshittification for anything remotely bad that a website does
  - hkt 2y ago
    We're all part of the ongoing negotiation of what words mean. If you want them to have significance, become a lawyer or a pedant. One of those fights the good fight to keep language as a valuable and viable communication medium in the face of those who embellish and misunderstand. A noble calling: be more pedant.
thinkingemote 2y ago
It's a little sad that the author identifies the source of the problem as capitalism but effectively adopts the capitalist, individualistic and economic framework talking about it's effects. Everything in life is no longer just living or valuable in itself but has to be seen and talked about as part of an economy. It's like Cypher in the Matrix writing about the relative benefits of changing his dinner from steak to something cheaper. Nothing now is useful if it cannot be evaluated in terms of money or capital. Even the term "emotional labour" the author seeks to replace is within this frame. It's not "just work", it's life.
- sctb 2y ago
  > It's like Cypher in the Matrix writing about the relative benefits of changing his dinner from steak to something cheaper. Now how can we take the rest of this comment seriously with a sentence like this?
declan_roberts 2y ago
This is another reason why, if you're a man, it's incredibly important for you to work hard enough and establish a lifestyle where your wife has the option to stay at home and/or avoid full-time professional work if she so chooses. It takes an incredible amount of work to run a household. It's not fair to ask her to do two jobs. And that's ESPECIALLY true after you begin having children. There first thing you (as the man) must do is get off the hedonic treadmill of consumerism that will drive the desire for two incomes.
- jasonpeacock 2y ago
  This is another reason why, if you're a woman, it's incredibly important for you to work hard enough and establish a lifestyle where your husband has the option to stay at home and/or avoid full-time professional work if he so chooses. It takes an incredible amount of work to run a household. It's not fair to ask him to do two jobs. And that's ESPECIALLY true after you begin having children. The first thing you (as the woman) must do is get off the hedonistic treadmill of consumerism that drives the desire to have two incomes.
  - declan_roberts 2y ago
    I fully endorse your message.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  Or, ya know, you could both chip in in the household work. That said, I'm not really against the thrust of your post, despite its undercurrent of sexism (I know plenty of relationships where the woman is the breadwinner and the man a househusband). In general, this "division of labor" is a thing that actually tends to work out better when you can focus on one thing at a time. As a not-perfect analogy, I know divorced couples with kids that actually feel their shared custody arrangement is much better than when they were together (note these couples still like and care for each other, they just don't want to be married). I.e. when it's their turn to have their kids, they're totally focused on their kids, it can be stressful if they're working but they block out all their time to either work or be with their kids. Then, when it's their spouse's turn, they can do whatever the F they want, be completely relaxed, etc.
icegreentea2 2y ago
Makes me wonder how different this would be in a pre-mechanized world. I can see a lot of comments (presumably from other men) that "everyone has their own preferences" for the types of kinwork to sink effort into. Imagining a pre-mechanized world, I could imagine so much more "kinwork" that would fall into "traditionally male" roles. Like, helping your family and close friends with stuff like... cleaning the gutters, or putting up a fence, or painting a deck def feels like "kinwork" to me.
next_xibalba 2y ago
All of this digital ink spilled when the simple answer is: just stop doing it. Clearly other people don't value your kin work/emotional labor/<insert next neologism>, so either 1) stop doing it, or 2) accept that it won't be valued and carry on. Eventually someone else may pick up the slack if they realize the did, in fact, value it. But can we please just stop with the martyrdom? I'm reminded of the serenity prayer: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference."
cess11 2y ago
I find unwaged labour to be a better term, since it does not imply in the same way that it is socially necessary and opens the discoursive, utopian possibility of a society without work.
cheif0aih4Ri 2y ago
[dead]
mberning 2y ago
Now image all the things that their partner does in the relationship, things they perhaps would rather not, but do so anyway. And do it without spewing a bitter screed onto the internet about it.
- olddustytrail 2y ago
  That's exactly what the article is about.
djoldman 2y ago
> I don’t need to point out that kin work is hard: we all know it is. But sometimes we forget that it also has a purpose beyond servicing the endless merry-go-round of heightened expectations. Kinwork is to humans what foraging for food or building a shelter is. Humans have always known we cannot survive alone, and that to protect ourselves, we need to persuade others to care about us....These ties can have powerful feelings attached, but ultimately, they are about our collective survival....The necessity of cultivating kin networks becomes even more obvious when children are born. Although there's a lot going on in this article, the above passage is particularly interesting. When two people form romantic connections and commitments they rarely, if ever, share the same standards-of-care/needs/expectations for how their relationship will proceed. This includes how any rituals surrounding holidays, kids, and extended family should proceed. Sometimes one partner expects/wants/needs a big gathering for Thanksgiving where the other doesn't want to celebrate it at all. Sometimes one partner strongly desires to have a "family photo" for end of year holidays to share with family or friends where the other partner does not. These may include expectation differences for physical intimacy, emotional support, etc. Without explicit communication, understanding, and agreement (where necessary), relationships and people suffer. Back to the above quote: reasonable people can disagree as to what's required to cultivate "kin relationships" and the degree to which those relationships are important. If there's disagreement or unhappiness with a status quo, then that needs to be communicated. If one party feels communication is difficult/unproductive/etc. then that issue should be dealt with first.

61 points by bobbiechen 2y ago

hkt 2y ago

A bit nitpicky, but I've noticed the same thing, especially in humanities and social science people who ought to know the difference better. Her point on dropping the ball is interesting, too: I'm a chronic ball dropper for christmas stuff, and mostly manage it by maintaining sane relationships the rest of the time. It would really be quite nice if other people took the same approach, not least because it is increasingly well understood how much people (women) despise this kind of work. Who wants to sit down to an elaborate christmas dinner planned and prepped by someone who clearly doesn't want to do it? A better festive time could be negotiated fairly easily between everyone if the pretence of obligation was dropped. Then maybe the other stuff ends up feeling easier.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

ahwelitif 2y ago

Maintaining your social life indeed takes real work and effort. Somehow, though, I suspect that insinuating I need extra rest after giving my emotional labor to "plan a night out with the guys" wouldn't go over so well with my wife. I think there is further nuance to be had here.

spencerflem 2y ago
I mean, the article is saying that planning a night out isn't "emotional labor", so you agree. They are saying it's kinwork
enragedcacti 2y ago
Once such nuance is that maintaining familial relationships is a shared responsibility whereas planning a night out with the guys is not. That said, I don't know your wife but I bet if you said "Bob is getting divorced and needed support but it was brutal so I just I need some alone time", she'd probably be receptive to that.
dymk 2y ago
Luckly, that's not what the author was suggesting. Now, if you were tasked with planning a dinner party, getting groceries, and cooking for a group of family friends, then asking for a break afterwards would be reasonable.
nineplay 2y ago
I think the nuance is between you and your wife and it is truly a pity if you feel you can't tell her that you need a rest. The other nuance is the continuing pressure on men to show no weakness. I keep hoping for some change here but I feel the pressure only increases and is to some degree self-reinforcing. If you aren't willing to admit weakness even to your life partner than what chance is there that other men will.
- hkt 2y ago
  > I think the nuance is between you and your wife and it is truly a pity if you feel you can't tell her that you need a rest Realistically, male weakness is repugnant to a lot of women. It is a huge gamble for anyone to show any whatsoever, as it is often construed as laziness. Feminism does a great job of understanding and articulating women's problems, but hasn't got much to say about how heterosexual women can often perpetuate some of the worst elements of masculinity.
  - nineplay 2y ago
    There's 'a lot of women' and then there's the poster's life partner. If he can't express his feelings to her than he's got bigger problems than 'kin work. Feminism has its ups and downs but its not going to be able to fix every gender related problem everywhere. Change begins at home.
balfirevic 2y ago
> Somehow, though, I suspect that insinuating I need extra rest after giving my emotional labor to "plan a night out with the guys" wouldn't go over so well with my wife. Why not? That's perfectly reasonable thing to do.
michaelt 2y ago
> Somehow, though, I suspect that insinuating I need extra rest after giving my emotional labor to "plan a night out with the guys" wouldn't go over so well with my wife. In my culture, events with the guys seems much easier to plan. The guys will have a great time even if I only feed them takeaway pizza and beer. Barbecue hasn't been assembled? They'll assemble it, light it, do the cooking, and do most of the clean-up too. If we go out for food, we can walk into pretty much any restaurant, we all have money and we'll all eat anything. Staying the night? The guys will show up with camp beds and sleeping bags if they need to. For the first event I had a backup barbecue prepared, in case the halal guy and the vegetarian guy wanted to keep their stuff separate - turns out no worries, just do our stuff first. And everyone has a great time! This counts as absolutely crushing it, in terms of planning events with the guys, in my society. On the other hand, big family events? There'll be a giant spread of home cooked food. Vegetarian options, vegan options, gluten-free options. Special food for the fussy nephew who'll only eat baked beans. Some people will show up with four different cakes. Some people will have baked practice cakes in advance to test out the new recipe before the big day.

bko 2y ago

> The benefits to keeping up this ‘emotional tone road show’ as Hochschild calls it, was obvious to their profit-seeking corporate employers. But the costs to the employees themselves were more hidden. Their emotional labour, according to Hochschild, was leaving employees dangerously alienated from their own feelings and perilously at risk of burn out. In the early 1980s, Hochschild estimated that a third of jobs made ‘substantial demands for emotional labour’; today she thinks that figure is more like half. Perhaps the most notorious example recently is the ‘enforced happiness’ at coffee chain Pret A Manger, which requires its servers to have rapport with one another, and enthusiasm for their (low-paid) jobs. I don't get this. What's the alternative? A customer service job where you can be rude? There are cultural norms which we all have to obey in a workplace. The classic example is don't talk about politics or religion. Others include don't be rude, don't heat up smelly food in the microwave, keep a clean workspace, don't yell or put people down, don't make unwarranted advances to coworkers, etc. Just control your emotions regardless of where you're working. I admit that the extra work around house maintenance usually born by women (e.g. birthdays, keeping stock of things, etc) is difficult and goes unappreciated. But I don't think extending that to "I must control my emotions in the workplace" is right.

throw4847285 2y ago
Hochschild's point in The Managed Heart was that many jobs place outsized demands on workers' emotional lives, beyond workplace names of politeness designed to reduce conflict. There is a massive difference between being asked not to be rude to your coworkers, which is a basic norm of politeness in our society, and having people pleasing become inextricably linked with one's ability to earn a living.
AdamH12113 2y ago
> What's the alternative? A customer service job where you can be rude? A customer service job where you can be merely polite and professional without also having to be artificially cheerful and enthusiastic. Or, if you must put on a show, at least be paid appropriately for the extra work you're doing.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

parpfish 2y ago

discussions about emotional labor/kinwork always talk quite a bit about the gender imbalance in where this labor traditionally comes from. but as a dude living with a chronically depressed spouse, i just want to take a second to tell let the men who end up taking on this burden that they're not alone.

ravishi 2y ago
I can understand that I'm not alone. It's reasonable to think so. I cannot find support anywhere, though. Which makes me feel isolated. I have nobody to share my struggles with. No place to vent. No space to process it. Only thing that has helped is therapy. After so many years I'm craving a group, though.
- ahwelitif 2y ago
  Hey man, its ok, here is an e-hug <3

AnotherGoodName 2y ago

Can I give a polite viewpoint that two people often have the bar set elsewhere when it comes to these sorts of things. The bar isn’t higher or lower. It’s in a completely different place. It’s unfair to claim ‘men don’t do as much to reach the bar we have over here’ since we have completely different bars in different locations. Eg. Based on experience many people tend not to send Christmas cards. They can’t understand the purpose. That’s not inherently terrible. It’s just a different viewpoint. On the other hand there’s people that couldn’t understand not sending cards. When people form a couple there’s many things like this where one part of the couple has the bar set in a completely different location. Which I think is ok. It’s ok for one half of the couple to not do as much card writing. The workload of a relationship should be split evenly overall but if one places waaaay more importance on a particular aspect than the other it’s ok for that one to bear more of the load in that case.

tantalor 2y ago
It's all about FOMO.
HPsquared 2y ago
It's apples and oranges. Subjective Theory of Value is the only reliable economic model here.
agieocean 2y ago
[flagged]
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago
  This is way out of line. Where on earth did GP deny it's realness? Read the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - agieocean 2y ago
    [flagged]

resource_waste 2y ago

I didn't understand the connection between 'doing dishes' and 'buying gifts/remembering birthdays'. I 100% do the dishes. I am terrible at remembering birthdays. Mixing the two did a disservice and I genuinely can't understand the point.

honkycat 2y ago
we've banned gifts for adults and we just go out to eat anymore. We don't need the junk and we are sick of stressing out about buying gifts.
- spunker540 2y ago
  Call me a grinch— but I can’t stand gifts, giving or receiving! I don’t feel comfortable telling my friends and family this fact however…

readthenotes1 2y ago

How much if the "kin work" is self imposed torture ? I have seen multiple instances where the stress degraded everyone's experience, and/or simply wasn't appreciated or valued by the intended recipients because they would have been just as satisfied by making their own sandwich. And sometimes, I've seen people dread the experience because of the required hours at the dinner table when they would rather be doing something less stifling. That is, I wonder how much of this can work is actually an example of the Abilene paradox https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox

perrygeo 2y ago
Everyone on my dad's side of the family gathered for xmas each year - maybe 20 of us. Full house. And everybody felt obliged to buy personal presents for everyone else. Finally someone stood up and said "Instead of everyone stressing about buying twenty cheap gifts, how about a secret santa where everyone gets one nice gift". Made the holidays less stressful for everyone. It just hadn't occurred to us - we bought into the obligate gift ritual without thinking.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

HPsquared 2y ago

The people organising the Christmas events etc do so because they really value that. The people who don't put effort into that kind of thing.. those are the ones who don't really care about it as much. People have different interests and values, and it's not a strict gender role thing either. It's just revealed preference.

stevage 2y ago

> People often call this work of arranging gatherings, preparing seasonal meals and giving gifts ‘emotional labour’. I have never heard anyone use the term emotional labour in that way.

philipkglass 2y ago
A very precise word or phrase may over time get broadened in usage to the point of incoherence. I have seen "gaslighting" broadened to include "having a contrary opinion" and "emotional labor" broadened to include "writing items on the grocery list."
- fragmede 2y ago
  and enshittification for anything remotely bad that a website does
- hkt 2y ago
  We're all part of the ongoing negotiation of what words mean. If you want them to have significance, become a lawyer or a pedant. One of those fights the good fight to keep language as a valuable and viable communication medium in the face of those who embellish and misunderstand. A noble calling: be more pedant.

thinkingemote 2y ago

It's a little sad that the author identifies the source of the problem as capitalism but effectively adopts the capitalist, individualistic and economic framework talking about it's effects. Everything in life is no longer just living or valuable in itself but has to be seen and talked about as part of an economy. It's like Cypher in the Matrix writing about the relative benefits of changing his dinner from steak to something cheaper. Nothing now is useful if it cannot be evaluated in terms of money or capital. Even the term "emotional labour" the author seeks to replace is within this frame. It's not "just work", it's life.

sctb 2y ago
> It's like Cypher in the Matrix writing about the relative benefits of changing his dinner from steak to something cheaper. Now how can we take the rest of this comment seriously with a sentence like this?

declan_roberts 2y ago

This is another reason why, if you're a man, it's incredibly important for you to work hard enough and establish a lifestyle where your wife has the option to stay at home and/or avoid full-time professional work if she so chooses. It takes an incredible amount of work to run a household. It's not fair to ask her to do two jobs. And that's ESPECIALLY true after you begin having children. There first thing you (as the man) must do is get off the hedonic treadmill of consumerism that will drive the desire for two incomes.

jasonpeacock 2y ago
This is another reason why, if you're a woman, it's incredibly important for you to work hard enough and establish a lifestyle where your husband has the option to stay at home and/or avoid full-time professional work if he so chooses. It takes an incredible amount of work to run a household. It's not fair to ask him to do two jobs. And that's ESPECIALLY true after you begin having children. The first thing you (as the woman) must do is get off the hedonistic treadmill of consumerism that drives the desire to have two incomes.
- declan_roberts 2y ago
  I fully endorse your message.
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
Or, ya know, you could both chip in in the household work. That said, I'm not really against the thrust of your post, despite its undercurrent of sexism (I know plenty of relationships where the woman is the breadwinner and the man a househusband). In general, this "division of labor" is a thing that actually tends to work out better when you can focus on one thing at a time. As a not-perfect analogy, I know divorced couples with kids that actually feel their shared custody arrangement is much better than when they were together (note these couples still like and care for each other, they just don't want to be married). I.e. when it's their turn to have their kids, they're totally focused on their kids, it can be stressful if they're working but they block out all their time to either work or be with their kids. Then, when it's their spouse's turn, they can do whatever the F they want, be completely relaxed, etc.

icegreentea2 2y ago

Makes me wonder how different this would be in a pre-mechanized world. I can see a lot of comments (presumably from other men) that "everyone has their own preferences" for the types of kinwork to sink effort into. Imagining a pre-mechanized world, I could imagine so much more "kinwork" that would fall into "traditionally male" roles. Like, helping your family and close friends with stuff like... cleaning the gutters, or putting up a fence, or painting a deck def feels like "kinwork" to me.

next_xibalba 2y ago

All of this digital ink spilled when the simple answer is: just stop doing it. Clearly other people don't value your kin work/emotional labor/<insert next neologism>, so either 1) stop doing it, or 2) accept that it won't be valued and carry on. Eventually someone else may pick up the slack if they realize the did, in fact, value it. But can we please just stop with the martyrdom? I'm reminded of the serenity prayer: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference."

cess11 2y ago

I find unwaged labour to be a better term, since it does not imply in the same way that it is socially necessary and opens the discoursive, utopian possibility of a society without work.

cheif0aih4Ri 2y ago

[dead]

mberning 2y ago

Now image all the things that their partner does in the relationship, things they perhaps would rather not, but do so anyway. And do it without spewing a bitter screed onto the internet about it.

olddustytrail 2y ago
That's exactly what the article is about.

djoldman 2y ago

> I don’t need to point out that kin work is hard: we all know it is. But sometimes we forget that it also has a purpose beyond servicing the endless merry-go-round of heightened expectations. Kinwork is to humans what foraging for food or building a shelter is. Humans have always known we cannot survive alone, and that to protect ourselves, we need to persuade others to care about us....These ties can have powerful feelings attached, but ultimately, they are about our collective survival....The necessity of cultivating kin networks becomes even more obvious when children are born. Although there's a lot going on in this article, the above passage is particularly interesting. When two people form romantic connections and commitments they rarely, if ever, share the same standards-of-care/needs/expectations for how their relationship will proceed. This includes how any rituals surrounding holidays, kids, and extended family should proceed. Sometimes one partner expects/wants/needs a big gathering for Thanksgiving where the other doesn't want to celebrate it at all. Sometimes one partner strongly desires to have a "family photo" for end of year holidays to share with family or friends where the other partner does not. These may include expectation differences for physical intimacy, emotional support, etc. Without explicit communication, understanding, and agreement (where necessary), relationships and people suffer. Back to the above quote: reasonable people can disagree as to what's required to cultivate "kin relationships" and the degree to which those relationships are important. If there's disagreement or unhappiness with a status quo, then that needs to be communicated. If one party feels communication is difficult/unproductive/etc. then that issue should be dealt with first.