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Think how successful Tesla could have been if he wasn't in the picture. Statements like a $25000 car being "pointless" are just wild; if they sold an affordable

by petee 2y ago

Think how successful Tesla could have been if he wasn't in the picture. Statements like a $25000 car being "pointless" are just wild; if they sold an affordable EV it would sell like crazy (well, could have once upon a time) I think people could care less about automation than having a safe and efficient vehicle

basementcat 2y ago
Fortunately the free market takes care of this and there are plenty of other EV's consumers may purchase.
- jm4 2y ago
  Is it a free market when Musk has unfettered access to the inner workings of the U.S. government? He just shut down an entire agency with a tweet. He is in a position to effect policies that favor him and his companies. How can anyone else compete fairly in that environment?
  - entropicdrifter 2y ago
    And that's why his stocks are doing fine despite him having alienated a huge chunk of the world with his fascist salutes. Edit for clarity: the "Roman" in "Roman salute" is based on the idea that the ancient Romans did this salute. Historians have indicated there is no evidence to support this idea. The salute was popularized by the Italian Fascists, who also popularized the idea that it hearkened back to the Romans, which based on modern evidence appears to have been a fabricated narrative. Hitler liked it so he adopted it for the Nazis too. It's a fascist salute, always has been.
    - Dracophoenix 2y ago
      >It's a fascist salute, always has been. Say what one will about Musk, but the salute itself has existed long before Fascism and Nazism. Look up the Bellamy Salute. Much like the swastika and the fasces, the so-called Roman salute does not originate or derive its meaning from the culture or ideology to which it is attributed. The belief that such a salute has always been fascistic, however, is no better than the mythic history concocted for it. Such claims only serve to legitimate the perception that the progenitors and proponents of these ideologies were unique and ingenious. They were not. As with the then-nascent propaganda/advertising industry, they plundered and mangled whatever symbols that could adopt for their own means and purposes.
      - basementcat 2y ago
        The Bellamy Salute was similar but not exactly the same. Im sure that if Elon's "gesture" connotes no special meaning, there would be no problem with you making the gesture before your colleagues and customers.
      - Zigurd 2y ago
        This is the very essence of pedantic. Do it at work, or in public. In the current context, the meaning, which you would discover if you tried it, is unambiguous. FAFO.
  - basementcat 2y ago
    An electoral majority of voters agree that handing him influence over federal government operations was better than the alternative. I am not aware of any widespread "regret" by voters over this issue; please correct me if I'm mistaken.
    - jm4 2y ago
      What does that have to do with anything? We are talking about free market with regards to EVs and I’m saying there isn’t one due to Musk’s influence in the U.S. government. Whether or not voters supported that or continue to support it is beside the point.
    - yellowapple 2y ago
      He was appointed, not elected. Precisely zero voters agreed upon any such thing.
    - jfengel 2y ago
      You're not mistaken. For those voters who chose him, this is all widely popular. There is surely some "regret" somewhere, but that's true of any election once it's over. There is good reason to think that the leopards will start eating their faces eventually, but for the moment the leopards are mostly eating the faces they were sent to eat.
  - basementcat 2y ago
    An interesting theory that a colleague proposed to me recently is that it is indeed consistent with free market principles for monopolistic entities to emerge and influence public policy. Consumers presumably think very hard about every purchasing decision weighing both economic value proposition (are these bananas cheaper than those bananas) as well as social signaling (should I buy a beer that has an advertisement with a trans person). If they want a business to have more political influence, they will buy more of their products and services. Therefore operators of the business have a fiduciary duty to shareholders and customers to exert as much influence over public policy as possible.
lesuorac 2y ago
This is the trend of every US auto manufacturer though no? It's not like somebody is making a 25k SUV; the average price for a new car is like 40+k. Why leave 15k on the table? You can't just replace Musk and Tesla starts selling a 25k car.
- buffington 2y ago
  > You can't just replace Musk and Tesla starts selling a 25k car. Can't you? As a shareholder, I'd welcome a proposal to fire Elon Musk, whether his replacement could produce a 25k car or not. It's clear to me that he has no interest in the success of the brand and will gladly see it fizzle if he has his way.
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    A majority shareholder vote decided to authorize an otherwise unnecessary payment to Musk, presumably to keep him as CEO. After that, a proposal to fire Musk would surely fail.
    - lesuorac 2y ago
      "otherwise unnecessary payment" is really an understatement. The payment is literally the last 3 years of profit [1]. [1]: pg 38 -- https://ir.tesla.com/_flysystem/s3/sec/000162828025003063/tsla-20241231-gen.pdf https://ir.tesla.com/_flysystem/s3/sec/000162828025003063/ts...
- petee 2y ago
  It's the context that they're planning a $25k robot taxi instead because automation is more important; it sounds like they can, and had wanted to make an affordable one, but Musk had a "vision" or something. Is a robot taxi really cheaper to make than a manual car? And who even wants that? That said, Musk has brought nothing to the table that someone else couldn't have, he gets far too much credit. He's just a talker. For example, the Cybertruck apparently had some great design ideas before he overrode the design team
buyucu 2y ago
I don't think anyone would have bought a Tesla if it wasn't for Elon Musk's charisma. By buying a Tesla, you're not buying a car. You're buying a vanity product whose value is tied to the image of the celebrity promoting it.
- entropicdrifter 2y ago
  That's especially true of the Cybertruck, the only car Elon actually contributed to the design of (besides the charging port location on the other models)
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    https://www.arenaev.com/tesla_pulls_out_all_the_stops_as_cybertruck_sales_grind_to_a_halt-news-4385.php https://www.arenaev.com/tesla_pulls_out_all_the_stops_as_cyb... https://electrek.co/2025/01/02/tesla-cybertruck-sales-are-disastrous/ https://electrek.co/2025/01/02/tesla-cybertruck-sales-are-di... https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/cybertruck-sales-took-a-disastrous-turn-in-4q24.339265/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/cybertruck-sales-too...
- sottol 2y ago
  A Tesla was genuinely an exciting car that many wanted. Sure, it lacked polish (and fit and finish were meh) but it was by far the best EV you could get for a long time. There was also the "other" factor before they were mainstream , or why some rich drive Land Rovers, Mercedes G class and so on, then it was just the hip car in the Bay Area and now everyone is driving them so why bother. Not saying people stopped buying them because of Musk, just that it wasn't necessarily his charisma that used to get people to buy them.
- buffington 2y ago
  > Elon Musk's charisma What little charisma Elon Musk had in 2019 had no influence on my decision to buy a used Model 3 at the time. If anything, Musk's "charisma" pushed me away from Tesla entirely, but the car's performance and charging network wasn't just better than the competition, it was fantastic, period. Elon or not, the deal I eventually got on a used one was worth it. Today, 250k miles later? Because of Elon Musk's "charisma", I'm both highly motivated to sell it, but also can't. That's because you're not entirely wrong. Turns out, when a celebrity billionaire starts let his evil show openly, the products he shills start to lose their appeal.

by petee 2y ago

basementcat 2y ago

Fortunately the free market takes care of this and there are plenty of other EV's consumers may purchase.

jm4 2y ago
Is it a free market when Musk has unfettered access to the inner workings of the U.S. government? He just shut down an entire agency with a tweet. He is in a position to effect policies that favor him and his companies. How can anyone else compete fairly in that environment?
- entropicdrifter 2y ago
  And that's why his stocks are doing fine despite him having alienated a huge chunk of the world with his fascist salutes. Edit for clarity: the "Roman" in "Roman salute" is based on the idea that the ancient Romans did this salute. Historians have indicated there is no evidence to support this idea. The salute was popularized by the Italian Fascists, who also popularized the idea that it hearkened back to the Romans, which based on modern evidence appears to have been a fabricated narrative. Hitler liked it so he adopted it for the Nazis too. It's a fascist salute, always has been.
  - Dracophoenix 2y ago
    >It's a fascist salute, always has been. Say what one will about Musk, but the salute itself has existed long before Fascism and Nazism. Look up the Bellamy Salute. Much like the swastika and the fasces, the so-called Roman salute does not originate or derive its meaning from the culture or ideology to which it is attributed. The belief that such a salute has always been fascistic, however, is no better than the mythic history concocted for it. Such claims only serve to legitimate the perception that the progenitors and proponents of these ideologies were unique and ingenious. They were not. As with the then-nascent propaganda/advertising industry, they plundered and mangled whatever symbols that could adopt for their own means and purposes.
    - basementcat 2y ago
      The Bellamy Salute was similar but not exactly the same. Im sure that if Elon's "gesture" connotes no special meaning, there would be no problem with you making the gesture before your colleagues and customers.
    - Zigurd 2y ago
      This is the very essence of pedantic. Do it at work, or in public. In the current context, the meaning, which you would discover if you tried it, is unambiguous. FAFO.
- basementcat 2y ago
  An electoral majority of voters agree that handing him influence over federal government operations was better than the alternative. I am not aware of any widespread "regret" by voters over this issue; please correct me if I'm mistaken.
  - jm4 2y ago
    What does that have to do with anything? We are talking about free market with regards to EVs and I’m saying there isn’t one due to Musk’s influence in the U.S. government. Whether or not voters supported that or continue to support it is beside the point.
  - yellowapple 2y ago
    He was appointed, not elected. Precisely zero voters agreed upon any such thing.
  - jfengel 2y ago
    You're not mistaken. For those voters who chose him, this is all widely popular. There is surely some "regret" somewhere, but that's true of any election once it's over. There is good reason to think that the leopards will start eating their faces eventually, but for the moment the leopards are mostly eating the faces they were sent to eat.
- basementcat 2y ago
  An interesting theory that a colleague proposed to me recently is that it is indeed consistent with free market principles for monopolistic entities to emerge and influence public policy. Consumers presumably think very hard about every purchasing decision weighing both economic value proposition (are these bananas cheaper than those bananas) as well as social signaling (should I buy a beer that has an advertisement with a trans person). If they want a business to have more political influence, they will buy more of their products and services. Therefore operators of the business have a fiduciary duty to shareholders and customers to exert as much influence over public policy as possible.

lesuorac 2y ago

This is the trend of every US auto manufacturer though no? It's not like somebody is making a 25k SUV; the average price for a new car is like 40+k. Why leave 15k on the table? You can't just replace Musk and Tesla starts selling a 25k car.

buffington 2y ago
> You can't just replace Musk and Tesla starts selling a 25k car. Can't you? As a shareholder, I'd welcome a proposal to fire Elon Musk, whether his replacement could produce a 25k car or not. It's clear to me that he has no interest in the success of the brand and will gladly see it fizzle if he has his way.
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
  A majority shareholder vote decided to authorize an otherwise unnecessary payment to Musk, presumably to keep him as CEO. After that, a proposal to fire Musk would surely fail.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    "otherwise unnecessary payment" is really an understatement. The payment is literally the last 3 years of profit [1]. [1]: pg 38 -- https://ir.tesla.com/_flysystem/s3/sec/000162828025003063/tsla-20241231-gen.pdf https://ir.tesla.com/_flysystem/s3/sec/000162828025003063/ts...
petee 2y ago
It's the context that they're planning a $25k robot taxi instead because automation is more important; it sounds like they can, and had wanted to make an affordable one, but Musk had a "vision" or something. Is a robot taxi really cheaper to make than a manual car? And who even wants that? That said, Musk has brought nothing to the table that someone else couldn't have, he gets far too much credit. He's just a talker. For example, the Cybertruck apparently had some great design ideas before he overrode the design team

buyucu 2y ago

I don't think anyone would have bought a Tesla if it wasn't for Elon Musk's charisma. By buying a Tesla, you're not buying a car. You're buying a vanity product whose value is tied to the image of the celebrity promoting it.

entropicdrifter 2y ago
That's especially true of the Cybertruck, the only car Elon actually contributed to the design of (besides the charging port location on the other models)
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  https://www.arenaev.com/tesla_pulls_out_all_the_stops_as_cybertruck_sales_grind_to_a_halt-news-4385.php https://www.arenaev.com/tesla_pulls_out_all_the_stops_as_cyb... https://electrek.co/2025/01/02/tesla-cybertruck-sales-are-disastrous/ https://electrek.co/2025/01/02/tesla-cybertruck-sales-are-di... https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/cybertruck-sales-took-a-disastrous-turn-in-4q24.339265/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/cybertruck-sales-too...
sottol 2y ago
A Tesla was genuinely an exciting car that many wanted. Sure, it lacked polish (and fit and finish were meh) but it was by far the best EV you could get for a long time. There was also the "other" factor before they were mainstream , or why some rich drive Land Rovers, Mercedes G class and so on, then it was just the hip car in the Bay Area and now everyone is driving them so why bother. Not saying people stopped buying them because of Musk, just that it wasn't necessarily his charisma that used to get people to buy them.
buffington 2y ago
> Elon Musk's charisma What little charisma Elon Musk had in 2019 had no influence on my decision to buy a used Model 3 at the time. If anything, Musk's "charisma" pushed me away from Tesla entirely, but the car's performance and charging network wasn't just better than the competition, it was fantastic, period. Elon or not, the deal I eventually got on a used one was worth it. Today, 250k miles later? Because of Elon Musk's "charisma", I'm both highly motivated to sell it, but also can't. That's because you're not entirely wrong. Turns out, when a celebrity billionaire starts let his evil show openly, the products he shills start to lose their appeal.