6 ms·

New York Magazine Deems Naturally Curly a Bad Investment For No Reason

20 points by roguecoder 14y ago

nanijoe 14y ago
Sounds like a dumb idea to me too..as did twitter and myspace.
- Lisa2000 14y ago
  As a curly haired woman, who read the article, I'd add that there is a small cultural shift afoot. Curly means natural, not straightened, not brazilian'd, not a weave, wig or blowout. Curly power: claim it. Next up: naturally grey hair. Straight + dyed hair = how women subjugate ourselves. Read somewhere that Paul Mitchell Hair Products and Patron tequila are behind the Curly Hair Network, and if that's true, then this curly network is content marketing.
  - Domenic_S 14y ago
    > Read somewhere that Paul Mitchell Hair Products and Patron tequila are behind the Curly Hair Network Perhaps you read that in, erm, the article? The one you said you read?
    - jfc 14y ago
      Or perhaps she read it elsewhere--there are lots of articles that talk about the Curly Hair Network. I saw an announcement about Paul Mitchell's investment on Twitter.
    - suitablegirl 14y ago
      Your comment added so much to this discussion! Since you took the effort to type it, I thought I would recognize it, since the only reason to, erm, leave such a comment would be to snark unnecessarily in order to draw attention to how detail-oriented and sarcastic you are.
      - Domenic_S 14y ago
        Aren't you precious.
- wtracy 14y ago
  This. Never underestimate the ability of a "dumb" idea to appeal to a massive market that just happens to not include you personally.
  - briandear 14y ago
    Twitter and MySpace aren't niche products. What's a niche social product that hit it big. Github is one of the few examples I can think of, but there's an enterprise component that made that product successful. Also content-based businesses tend to have a very rough time because you're only as good as the content you can support.
    - roguecoder 14y ago
      ... Hacker's News? Slashdot? Ravelry? Ars Technica? Penny Arcade? ESPN? RedState? And that's just off the top of my head. You seem threatened by someone succeeding at something that has absolutely nothing to do with you. It's really kinda weird.
    - wtracy 14y ago
      "Hitting it big" with a multi-billion dollar exit is not an absolute requirement for being a successful company. Also, 40% of all women hardly sounds niche to me.
- Domenic_S 14y ago
  An idea can be dumb and also profitable, if it makes you feel any better.
briandear 14y ago
So what's the market demand for a curly hair social network? They didn't provide evidence, but the common sense test would suggest that this is a dumb idea. A lmost as worthless as a network for left handed people. I've never thought how cool it would be to have a social network for blue eyed guys with thinning hair. Some ideas are just ridiculous -- no evidence needed -- just experience and common sense.
- briandear 14y ago
  When the curly hair network goes IPO, then I'll eat my hat.
- mrmusa 14y ago
  Does a good idea promise success? I thought it was PG@YC that was looking for smart people with a clue. Maybe then they would work together to produce a successful venture. Anyway, ideas are cheap. This is a business and it has been funded and well-positioned to control their exit.
- heyitsnick 14y ago
  Exactly. The article correctly outlines why "curly hair" is a large business market. It does nothing to explain why these people need their own dedicated social network, why was the whole point behind the offhand comment in the NY magazine.
  - jfc 14y ago
    "These people"? Sounds a bit hostile. Anyway, many social networks attempt meet pain points. Women with naturally curly hair deal with alot of issues. Lack of products, good stylists, societal issues (e.g., "is curly hair professional?"). It's the kind of thing you probably don't think about unless you have curly hair. Lots of bonding among curly-haired women is already occurring online. A central network is a great idea--I'm thinking it will be really popular. It's part of The Long Tail.
    - heyitsnick 14y ago
PaulHoule 14y ago
I read they're putting $1.4M into it, which isn't crazy for a site like this. If it was $14M I'd say something different. I think of how it's been obvious for a long time that a shoujo site vaugely like Digg or Reddit could take a piece out of Oprah Winfrey's empire, but Pintrest was the first sharing site to really click with women. And note that Pinterest comes from Iowa, not SV or NYC! As much as outsiders blame SV for being centered in "worthless" social media plays, my view from a distance is that SV lost interest in early stage social media companies some time ago and lately there's more interest in SAAS and "Freemium" business models, things like Dropbox, github, basecamp, etc. Part of it is that the technical aspects of running a "good enough" social media site are getting easier and the real challenge is connecting w/ an audience. You can do that from L.A. or Atlanta or Des Moines.
Androsynth 14y ago
A blogger ridiculing a blogger who ridiculed a startup.... Is this what we've become? This is second hand crap. This is gossip.
krakensden 14y ago
Link: http://www.naturallycurly.com/ http://www.naturallycurly.com/ It's like WebMD, except every article can have an affiliate link. Not to mention all the ads. As long as it gets traffic, there's no reason it shouldn't be crazy profitable.
- briandear 14y ago
  Except WebMD has a massive, broad based appeal and thousands of pages of content. The amount of content to support a curly network can only be so much. Even sports social networks fall short and there are games constantly. Ultra niche products can be profitable, but certainly not at the numbers to warrant VC interest. I am not knocking the site, I am just questioning it as an investment.
  - krakensden 14y ago
    "Humans" is a bigger market than "Humans with curly hair", but the latter is still a bloody huge market segment. Probably not much hope for expansion to China though.
MartinCron 14y ago
This was familiar to me, so I went digging and found this article on NaturallyCurly.com from 2001. http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/celebrities/princess-diaries http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/celebrities/prince... This "niche social network" has been around for a long time, as a special-interest web site. So it seems that the formula here may be: special interest content + valuable market + social features = profit. Nothing intrinsically bad there.
wtracy 14y ago
To the people here who are still dissing this idea: Actually go to naturallycurly.com and look at their site. This isn't a Facebook clone with "for curly-haired women" tacked onto it. It's a curated collection of articles on beauty and body care with associated discussion groups. (That's where the "social" part comes in.) Seems like a fantastic business to me.
jfc 14y ago
A couple of things. The ethnic hair care & beauty market approached $3 billion in sales in 2011 (check out Packaged Facts, etc.). Not a small market. And in 2010, that market grew 13%. There are big trends in social media around natural/naturally curly hair and beauty. I know a couple of startup founders who are building out apps in the ethnic beauty space, and there are already other social networks focused on hair-related issues for diverse women. Lots of high-traffic blogs, too. All things considered, $1.4m isn't much. ETA: Many women are very social around beauty, especially hair. I have naturally curly hair, and I can't tell you how many times I am complimented or asked questions (in person and online) by other women (and the occasional man) who are interested in chatting. Having an online network seems a natural next step.
- briandear 14y ago
  My company iCouch, addresses a $20 billion dollar market growing by 20% -- but that doesn't mean that market creates profitability for companies in the space. Cheese is also a multi billion dollar market, but a Cheese social network doesn't necessarily make money. The market size isn't determined by the market size of the particular niche. The question is what's the market size for people that want to share articles about curly hair. People buy hair products, but it doesn't mean they want to join a network to hang out with other people buying those products. The "XYZ" market is X $billion per year doesn't mean anything to investors, the question is what's the addressable market for your particular product. There is a very big difference.
  - jfc 14y ago
    Yes, yes, we all know how to size markets. The point I was making is that the market is there AND there is considerable interest around hair texture and styling among diverse women. Those who have researched ethnic personal care (and related issues) frequently discuss the importance and ubiquity of social interaction among those sharing certain beauty attributes. Check google if you're interested in the research--it's out there. $1.4m is a small risk for a company already getting 2 million uniques a month. By the way, if you are looking for traditional metrics on curly hair, the most you'll get is general ethnic personal care market sizing--the numbers just aren't as granular for markets around hair texture, skin color, etc. Hopefully soon we'll get access to that kind of data. ETA: ethnic personal care data can be used as a proxy for curly haired people, but any ethnic group can have curly hair.
Domenic_S 14y ago
The article and most of the comments on here are arguing against a straw man. The original Dumb Money article [1] is about "dumb ideas" -- and let's be clear that an idea can be both dumb and profitable. As to as whether or not NaturallyCurly.com is a bad financial investment, I'm leaning toward yes. It's an advertising play with plenty (2MM) of page views, so this site should be printing money. Plus the site's been around for what, a decade? Why take investment money now, shouldn't 10 years be enough time to monetize? I can't see a reason why an investor would be useful to them -- if they're not making boatloads of dough by now, VC money is useless. If they are making loads of money, why take VC cash? [1] - http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/07/dumb-money-techs-stupidest-investments.html http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/07/dumb-money-techs-stupid...
missizii 14y ago
I'm a white woman who has been going to naturallycurly.com for at least 5 years. Naturally curly hair is different to cut & style than straight hair, and there are surprisingly few stylists who cut curly hair well. I don't see how race plays into it other than I've never met a black woman with naturally straight hair. The beauty market is huge, and naturallycurly is a great resource for the many women currently underserved because conventional beauty standards dictate straight or wavy hair.

20 points by roguecoder 14y ago

nanijoe 14y ago

Sounds like a dumb idea to me too..as did twitter and myspace.

Lisa2000 14y ago
As a curly haired woman, who read the article, I'd add that there is a small cultural shift afoot. Curly means natural, not straightened, not brazilian'd, not a weave, wig or blowout. Curly power: claim it. Next up: naturally grey hair. Straight + dyed hair = how women subjugate ourselves. Read somewhere that Paul Mitchell Hair Products and Patron tequila are behind the Curly Hair Network, and if that's true, then this curly network is content marketing.
- Domenic_S 14y ago
  > Read somewhere that Paul Mitchell Hair Products and Patron tequila are behind the Curly Hair Network Perhaps you read that in, erm, the article? The one you said you read?
  - jfc 14y ago
    Or perhaps she read it elsewhere--there are lots of articles that talk about the Curly Hair Network. I saw an announcement about Paul Mitchell's investment on Twitter.
  - suitablegirl 14y ago
    Your comment added so much to this discussion! Since you took the effort to type it, I thought I would recognize it, since the only reason to, erm, leave such a comment would be to snark unnecessarily in order to draw attention to how detail-oriented and sarcastic you are.
    - Domenic_S 14y ago
      Aren't you precious.
wtracy 14y ago
This. Never underestimate the ability of a "dumb" idea to appeal to a massive market that just happens to not include you personally.
- briandear 14y ago
  Twitter and MySpace aren't niche products. What's a niche social product that hit it big. Github is one of the few examples I can think of, but there's an enterprise component that made that product successful. Also content-based businesses tend to have a very rough time because you're only as good as the content you can support.
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    ... Hacker's News? Slashdot? Ravelry? Ars Technica? Penny Arcade? ESPN? RedState? And that's just off the top of my head. You seem threatened by someone succeeding at something that has absolutely nothing to do with you. It's really kinda weird.
  - wtracy 14y ago
    "Hitting it big" with a multi-billion dollar exit is not an absolute requirement for being a successful company. Also, 40% of all women hardly sounds niche to me.
Domenic_S 14y ago
An idea can be dumb and also profitable, if it makes you feel any better.

briandear 14y ago

So what's the market demand for a curly hair social network? They didn't provide evidence, but the common sense test would suggest that this is a dumb idea. A lmost as worthless as a network for left handed people. I've never thought how cool it would be to have a social network for blue eyed guys with thinning hair. Some ideas are just ridiculous -- no evidence needed -- just experience and common sense.

briandear 14y ago
When the curly hair network goes IPO, then I'll eat my hat.
mrmusa 14y ago
Does a good idea promise success? I thought it was PG@YC that was looking for smart people with a clue. Maybe then they would work together to produce a successful venture. Anyway, ideas are cheap. This is a business and it has been funded and well-positioned to control their exit.
heyitsnick 14y ago
Exactly. The article correctly outlines why "curly hair" is a large business market. It does nothing to explain why these people need their own dedicated social network, why was the whole point behind the offhand comment in the NY magazine.
- jfc 14y ago
  "These people"? Sounds a bit hostile. Anyway, many social networks attempt meet pain points. Women with naturally curly hair deal with alot of issues. Lack of products, good stylists, societal issues (e.g., "is curly hair professional?"). It's the kind of thing you probably don't think about unless you have curly hair. Lots of bonding among curly-haired women is already occurring online. A central network is a great idea--I'm thinking it will be really popular. It's part of The Long Tail.
  - heyitsnick 14y ago

PaulHoule 14y ago

I read they're putting $1.4M into it, which isn't crazy for a site like this. If it was $14M I'd say something different. I think of how it's been obvious for a long time that a shoujo site vaugely like Digg or Reddit could take a piece out of Oprah Winfrey's empire, but Pintrest was the first sharing site to really click with women. And note that Pinterest comes from Iowa, not SV or NYC! As much as outsiders blame SV for being centered in "worthless" social media plays, my view from a distance is that SV lost interest in early stage social media companies some time ago and lately there's more interest in SAAS and "Freemium" business models, things like Dropbox, github, basecamp, etc. Part of it is that the technical aspects of running a "good enough" social media site are getting easier and the real challenge is connecting w/ an audience. You can do that from L.A. or Atlanta or Des Moines.

Androsynth 14y ago

A blogger ridiculing a blogger who ridiculed a startup.... Is this what we've become? This is second hand crap. This is gossip.

krakensden 14y ago

Link: http://www.naturallycurly.com/ http://www.naturallycurly.com/ It's like WebMD, except every article can have an affiliate link. Not to mention all the ads. As long as it gets traffic, there's no reason it shouldn't be crazy profitable.

briandear 14y ago
Except WebMD has a massive, broad based appeal and thousands of pages of content. The amount of content to support a curly network can only be so much. Even sports social networks fall short and there are games constantly. Ultra niche products can be profitable, but certainly not at the numbers to warrant VC interest. I am not knocking the site, I am just questioning it as an investment.
- krakensden 14y ago
  "Humans" is a bigger market than "Humans with curly hair", but the latter is still a bloody huge market segment. Probably not much hope for expansion to China though.

MartinCron 14y ago

This was familiar to me, so I went digging and found this article on NaturallyCurly.com from 2001. http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/celebrities/princess-diaries http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/celebrities/prince... This "niche social network" has been around for a long time, as a special-interest web site. So it seems that the formula here may be: special interest content + valuable market + social features = profit. Nothing intrinsically bad there.

wtracy 14y ago

To the people here who are still dissing this idea: Actually go to naturallycurly.com and look at their site. This isn't a Facebook clone with "for curly-haired women" tacked onto it. It's a curated collection of articles on beauty and body care with associated discussion groups. (That's where the "social" part comes in.) Seems like a fantastic business to me.

jfc 14y ago

A couple of things. The ethnic hair care & beauty market approached $3 billion in sales in 2011 (check out Packaged Facts, etc.). Not a small market. And in 2010, that market grew 13%. There are big trends in social media around natural/naturally curly hair and beauty. I know a couple of startup founders who are building out apps in the ethnic beauty space, and there are already other social networks focused on hair-related issues for diverse women. Lots of high-traffic blogs, too. All things considered, $1.4m isn't much. ETA: Many women are very social around beauty, especially hair. I have naturally curly hair, and I can't tell you how many times I am complimented or asked questions (in person and online) by other women (and the occasional man) who are interested in chatting. Having an online network seems a natural next step.

briandear 14y ago
My company iCouch, addresses a $20 billion dollar market growing by 20% -- but that doesn't mean that market creates profitability for companies in the space. Cheese is also a multi billion dollar market, but a Cheese social network doesn't necessarily make money. The market size isn't determined by the market size of the particular niche. The question is what's the market size for people that want to share articles about curly hair. People buy hair products, but it doesn't mean they want to join a network to hang out with other people buying those products. The "XYZ" market is X $billion per year doesn't mean anything to investors, the question is what's the addressable market for your particular product. There is a very big difference.
- jfc 14y ago
  Yes, yes, we all know how to size markets. The point I was making is that the market is there AND there is considerable interest around hair texture and styling among diverse women. Those who have researched ethnic personal care (and related issues) frequently discuss the importance and ubiquity of social interaction among those sharing certain beauty attributes. Check google if you're interested in the research--it's out there. $1.4m is a small risk for a company already getting 2 million uniques a month. By the way, if you are looking for traditional metrics on curly hair, the most you'll get is general ethnic personal care market sizing--the numbers just aren't as granular for markets around hair texture, skin color, etc. Hopefully soon we'll get access to that kind of data. ETA: ethnic personal care data can be used as a proxy for curly haired people, but any ethnic group can have curly hair.

Domenic_S 14y ago

The article and most of the comments on here are arguing against a straw man. The original Dumb Money article [1] is about "dumb ideas" -- and let's be clear that an idea can be both dumb and profitable. As to as whether or not NaturallyCurly.com is a bad financial investment, I'm leaning toward yes. It's an advertising play with plenty (2MM) of page views, so this site should be printing money. Plus the site's been around for what, a decade? Why take investment money now, shouldn't 10 years be enough time to monetize? I can't see a reason why an investor would be useful to them -- if they're not making boatloads of dough by now, VC money is useless. If they are making loads of money, why take VC cash? [1] - http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/07/dumb-money-techs-stupidest-investments.html http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/07/dumb-money-techs-stupid...

missizii 14y ago

I'm a white woman who has been going to naturallycurly.com for at least 5 years. Naturally curly hair is different to cut & style than straight hair, and there are surprisingly few stylists who cut curly hair well. I don't see how race plays into it other than I've never met a black woman with naturally straight hair. The beauty market is huge, and naturallycurly is a great resource for the many women currently underserved because conventional beauty standards dictate straight or wavy hair.