6 ms·

I am a sci-fi nerd and I also found Neuromancer incredibly boring, but that's probably because it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine. I'

I am a sci-fi nerd and I also found Neuromancer incredibly boring, but that's probably because it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine. I'm not a fan if present-ish day sci-fi though, reality is depressing enough as it is.

namaria 2y ago
I like sci-fi but I tend to only like classics. I found Neuromancer so incredibly interesting because it seems to be at the root of so much contemporary "cyberpunk" stuff. I often say that genres are what happens when mediocre artists latch on to something fresh someone created, and to me it's only worth spending time with the originators. Though I understand lots of people like that something that engrossed them can be sought further in a genre. And that's pretty much how I felt about reading Neuromancer. I like cyberpunk so I want the real thing, not the emulation. Neuromancer and Ghost in the Shell are so much better than Matrix. And I love the Matrix.
- etrautmann 2y ago
  Interesting, though I think this type of thinking os overly black and white. All art is inspired and derived from the context in which it was created. While there are obviously more and less original works, genre boundaries are often soft. This may just have more to do with what you were exposed to first or when you were born?
  - namaria 2y ago
    I agree, this is just how I go about it. Not defending it on any general grounds whatsoever. I acknowledge that a lot of the media I consume ends up being just part of a genre, and that I often don't even know the originals and only have access to simulacra. But when I think about what I wanna read next, what albums to buy records of and so on, I prefer to go as far upstream as I can or know about.
  - JohnBooty 2y ago
    Everything is inspired by something else. Objectively, punk rock is "just" rock music in terms of instruments and chords. And Jackson Pollack was not the first abstract painter. Etc. But, some things are clearly... more distinct from their forebearers than others.
coldpie 2y ago
> I'm not a fan if present-ish day sci-fi though, reality is depressing enough as it is. I subscribe to the Asimov's sci-fi short story magazine (I highly recommend it!) and yeah, I have to skip every story that starts with "the world was devastated by climate change 20-50 years ago, here's how we're surviving now above the flooded remains of our world." I just can't take it.
- namaria 2y ago
  I tried re-reading Brave New World recently. It was too depressing how it felt it was describing present times.
  - implmntatio 2y ago
    In cases like this, it helps me to think of a simulation - that the book does not talk about - that has a specific framework and set of rules to decide whether to let people out of the portrayed present or not. I had that idea a long while ago and started to apply it to TV shows, books, news, even myself when I had a weird flashback to boring drug-induced times. It works well to kill the depression that can arise out of narratives (except song lyrics, music productions in general and Rick & Morty. once something feels like too many shrooms and too much LSD aka too much harmony in bullshitting oneself and the audience, the whole thing breaks down and I get an Agent Smith vibe, an Agent Smith that didn't age well at all)
  - RGamma 2y ago
    Even more depressingly these works come to be used as a sort of handbook. Ostensibly Snow Crash is dystopian literature, but tech bros liked it and its author even has been co-opted as a "futurist" by Blue Origin. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      Stephenson was one of the first people to work at Blue Origin, back when it was more of a "talk about cool space shit" club. He left long ago though, around the time it started to become a serious rocket company.
implmntatio 2y ago
+1 on my contra list for the book, which I have not read yet because the lingo annoybored me after two or three pages. > it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine So you've read works that build on Necromancer earlier. Care to share some of those books/authors and concepts?
- 01100011 2y ago
  Bruce Sterling?
- zem 2y ago
  "hardwired" (walter jon williams) felt pretty gibson-inspired, though given that it came out just two years after neuromancer perhaps they were just tapping into the same cyberpunk zeitgeist. (I guess it depends on to what extent you feel gibson singlehandedly invented cyberpunk as a genre; he certainly shaped the field the way tolkien did for fantasy, but there were others contributing to it too.)
mindcrime 2y ago
I am a sci-fi nerd and I also found Neuromancer incredibly boring, I'm curious... if you're willing to say, when did you first read Neuromancer? And had you read a lot of other cyberpunk themed media beforehand? but that's probably because it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine. Yeah, if you'd already been exposed to a lot of the core ideas / themes from other more contemporary works, I can see how that might take away a bit from the Neuromancer experience. To give a counterpoint... I first read Neuromancer about 1993 / 1994 or somewhere in that range. And I believe it was the first cyberpunk novel I'd read. I think maybe the only other media from the cyberpunk genre that I'd been exposed to then was the "Max Headroom" tv show. Anyway... Neuromancer absolutely blew my mind and I was instantly hooked. To this day it's one of my favorite novels, and I've re-read it several subsequent times. And will almost certainly read it again (and again...) I can't get enough of it. Of course it's hard to say exactly why our respective reactions to it are so different. There are a lot of variables. But I think your notion from above has a lot of merit to it. If one experiences a derivative (or many derivatives) of something before the original, does the original them come to feel like a cheap copy? I've had that experience with cover versions of songs before. That is, times when I heard and loved a cover, and then only later heard the original. And in many (maybe all) of those cases, I still preferred the cover over the original.
- BarryMilo 2y ago
  I got it for Christmas, so just last month actually! I think it's possible it's just too late now, apart from a historical perspective. The concepts have become obvious and the prose is... not for me. In terms of influence I suppose I'm mostly thinking of movies and shows such as the Matrix, but I also read so many short stories involving VR and techno-dystopias it's hard to pinpoint. Snowcrash is certainly up there (yes I tried to read Snowcrash first, having done no research, and liked it even less). Having played every Shadowrun game doesn't help (the universe is in a lot of ways "just" fantasy Neuromancer). All that being said, Neuromancer doesn't read like a cheap copy either. More like I've been riding bicycles all my life and someone presented me with a penny farthing. I appreciate the innovation, it's just not particularly mind-blowing anymore.
- 01100011 2y ago
flocciput 2y ago
I felt the same way about Hyperion by Dan Simmons. Went in not knowing or caring when it was written and some themes felt played out, but realizing it was 1989 cast it in a totally different light for me. Weird how that works.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  Man i was so disappointed by hyperion. felt like they didn't really go anywhere satisfying with the premise
  - marssaxman 2y ago
    I felt similarly - it was like "here's a series of disconnected vignettes that don't really go anywhere or add up to anything; enjoy" - but I didn't, especially. I wondered for a long time if there was something about the novel I just wasn't understanding, which would make it make sense, but eventually I decided what I was missing is that some people are totally fine with a series of disconnected vignettes that don't really go anywhere, so long as they enjoy the writing along the way.
    - snapcaster 2y ago
      You described my journey with the book exactly! glad to know i wasn't the only one
- ecshafer 2y ago
  The first Hyperion book was great, Canterbury Tales in Space is a great concept and well done. The full series, I think Simmons couldn't really find a good satisfying ending.
- stewarts 2y ago
  I read it (the full 4 book series) as a teen prior to 2000. Very different experience! One of my favorite reads of all time.
sporkydistance 2y ago
I think with books like Neuromancer it is a matter of "when" you read it. If you read it today, it seems trite, like Snow Crash. If you read Neuromancer in 1984, it was mind-blowing. Same thing with Snow Crash in 1992. These books were decades ahead of their time. Neuromancer is more like PKDick, in that they are adult-themed books more about personal problems with sci-fi on the side, and it is actually part one of a number of book with the same character (e.g., Count Zero). That can be boring to someone expecting lots of "pew-pew-pew I hacked the mainframe". Snow Crash also didn't really age well in terms of dorkiness (cyberdogs breaking the sound barrier, nukes attached to a biker-thugs brain, gangs in cyberspace ?!?!?, etc.), but at the time we were all floored by the new concepts.
- rout39574 2y ago
  Oh come on; "Jack the sound barrier; bring the noise."... That still rocks, or slaps, or whatever. And you can't tell me you don't shiver if someone says "I'm sure he'll listen to reason.."
- foobarchu 2y ago
  > adult-themed books more about personal problems with sci-fi on the side I'm not sure I agree with this. I love the sprawl trilogy, but my feeling has always been that the entire plots are excuses for the big set piece events. The characters exist so that he can write vivid scenes and try to paint a picture, everything between is just so they get to the right places for him to do that. > it is actually part one of a number of book with the same character (e.g., Count Zero). I don't think there's were any character overlaps between Neuromancer and Count Zero, are there? Mona Lisa Overdrive certainly does.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  I think Neuromancer is timeless and will prove to have extremely long-lasting appeal, even long after the ideas in it are hopelessly dated, because of how stylish it is. It will last like Lovecraft gas because of how much fun it is to read. Contrast with Asimov, who's books were carried by ideas but had a very tedious style.
- zem 2y ago
Semaphor 2y ago
Almost all space opera is positive, not depressing. In case you are into that.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  Well, until you realize how unbelievable the entire genre is. Then it's just aggravating. Old man yelling at book "don't you realize your tropes are completely stale??"
  - Semaphor 2y ago
    I highly enjoy it, thank you very much
    - pfdietz 2y ago
      Sure, that's a state that will persist until it doesn't. One common barrier to suspension of disbelief is the Fermi Problem. A great deal of space opera just ignores it, but once you take the argument seriously it ruins much of the world building. If I want to ignore rationality of the world design and just read human achievement porn I'll head over to r/HFY.
      - philipkglass 2y ago
        I thought that you were going to condemn the genre's ubiquitous faster-than-light communications/travel. I approach space opera as a specialized variant of high fantasy, where the usual tropes are as genre-acceptable as wizards and ghosts.
        pfdietz 2y ago
        That's an external inconsistency, but SF is typically allowed one such assumption. Ignoring the Fermi Argument is an internal inconsistency. The world just doesn't work on its own terms.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
01100011 2y ago
This reminds me of a comment I read years ago, maybe on HN, from a younger person who thought The Beatles were completely overrated. Like, sure, because you grew up on music that wouldn't have existed without them. You heard them thousands of times already in tribute from younger bands you like. Context matters. There are cultural classics you just cannot understand without having lived in the times.
- plastic3169 2y ago
  I love The Beatles. My favorite band maybe. Yet this year in Grammys the rock awards went to The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. Makes me sad. Although I can appreciate and consume ”old” culture there is something important in that the cutting or derivative edge keeps moving forward reflecting current times.
jayd16 2y ago
Even with the now common sci-fi themes I still thought Neuromsncer was a fun read. It's basically the Italian Job or Ocean's 11 and the action of the heist pays off.
- BarryMilo 2y ago
  You might be right, I should give it another go

namaria 2y ago

I like sci-fi but I tend to only like classics. I found Neuromancer so incredibly interesting because it seems to be at the root of so much contemporary "cyberpunk" stuff. I often say that genres are what happens when mediocre artists latch on to something fresh someone created, and to me it's only worth spending time with the originators. Though I understand lots of people like that something that engrossed them can be sought further in a genre. And that's pretty much how I felt about reading Neuromancer. I like cyberpunk so I want the real thing, not the emulation. Neuromancer and Ghost in the Shell are so much better than Matrix. And I love the Matrix.

etrautmann 2y ago
Interesting, though I think this type of thinking os overly black and white. All art is inspired and derived from the context in which it was created. While there are obviously more and less original works, genre boundaries are often soft. This may just have more to do with what you were exposed to first or when you were born?
- namaria 2y ago
  I agree, this is just how I go about it. Not defending it on any general grounds whatsoever. I acknowledge that a lot of the media I consume ends up being just part of a genre, and that I often don't even know the originals and only have access to simulacra. But when I think about what I wanna read next, what albums to buy records of and so on, I prefer to go as far upstream as I can or know about.
- JohnBooty 2y ago
  Everything is inspired by something else. Objectively, punk rock is "just" rock music in terms of instruments and chords. And Jackson Pollack was not the first abstract painter. Etc. But, some things are clearly... more distinct from their forebearers than others.

coldpie 2y ago

> I'm not a fan if present-ish day sci-fi though, reality is depressing enough as it is. I subscribe to the Asimov's sci-fi short story magazine (I highly recommend it!) and yeah, I have to skip every story that starts with "the world was devastated by climate change 20-50 years ago, here's how we're surviving now above the flooded remains of our world." I just can't take it.

namaria 2y ago
I tried re-reading Brave New World recently. It was too depressing how it felt it was describing present times.
- implmntatio 2y ago
  In cases like this, it helps me to think of a simulation - that the book does not talk about - that has a specific framework and set of rules to decide whether to let people out of the portrayed present or not. I had that idea a long while ago and started to apply it to TV shows, books, news, even myself when I had a weird flashback to boring drug-induced times. It works well to kill the depression that can arise out of narratives (except song lyrics, music productions in general and Rick & Morty. once something feels like too many shrooms and too much LSD aka too much harmony in bullshitting oneself and the audience, the whole thing breaks down and I get an Agent Smith vibe, an Agent Smith that didn't age well at all)
- RGamma 2y ago
  Even more depressingly these works come to be used as a sort of handbook. Ostensibly Snow Crash is dystopian literature, but tech bros liked it and its author even has been co-opted as a "futurist" by Blue Origin. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    Stephenson was one of the first people to work at Blue Origin, back when it was more of a "talk about cool space shit" club. He left long ago though, around the time it started to become a serious rocket company.

implmntatio 2y ago

+1 on my contra list for the book, which I have not read yet because the lingo annoybored me after two or three pages. > it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine So you've read works that build on Necromancer earlier. Care to share some of those books/authors and concepts?

01100011 2y ago
Bruce Sterling?
zem 2y ago
"hardwired" (walter jon williams) felt pretty gibson-inspired, though given that it came out just two years after neuromancer perhaps they were just tapping into the same cyberpunk zeitgeist. (I guess it depends on to what extent you feel gibson singlehandedly invented cyberpunk as a genre; he certainly shaped the field the way tolkien did for fantasy, but there were others contributing to it too.)

mindcrime 2y ago

I am a sci-fi nerd and I also found Neuromancer incredibly boring, I'm curious... if you're willing to say, when did you first read Neuromancer? And had you read a lot of other cyberpunk themed media beforehand? but that's probably because it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine. Yeah, if you'd already been exposed to a lot of the core ideas / themes from other more contemporary works, I can see how that might take away a bit from the Neuromancer experience. To give a counterpoint... I first read Neuromancer about 1993 / 1994 or somewhere in that range. And I believe it was the first cyberpunk novel I'd read. I think maybe the only other media from the cyberpunk genre that I'd been exposed to then was the "Max Headroom" tv show. Anyway... Neuromancer absolutely blew my mind and I was instantly hooked. To this day it's one of my favorite novels, and I've re-read it several subsequent times. And will almost certainly read it again (and again...) I can't get enough of it. Of course it's hard to say exactly why our respective reactions to it are so different. There are a lot of variables. But I think your notion from above has a lot of merit to it. If one experiences a derivative (or many derivatives) of something before the original, does the original them come to feel like a cheap copy? I've had that experience with cover versions of songs before. That is, times when I heard and loved a cover, and then only later heard the original. And in many (maybe all) of those cases, I still preferred the cover over the original.

BarryMilo 2y ago
I got it for Christmas, so just last month actually! I think it's possible it's just too late now, apart from a historical perspective. The concepts have become obvious and the prose is... not for me. In terms of influence I suppose I'm mostly thinking of movies and shows such as the Matrix, but I also read so many short stories involving VR and techno-dystopias it's hard to pinpoint. Snowcrash is certainly up there (yes I tried to read Snowcrash first, having done no research, and liked it even less). Having played every Shadowrun game doesn't help (the universe is in a lot of ways "just" fantasy Neuromancer). All that being said, Neuromancer doesn't read like a cheap copy either. More like I've been riding bicycles all my life and someone presented me with a penny farthing. I appreciate the innovation, it's just not particularly mind-blowing anymore.
01100011 2y ago

flocciput 2y ago

I felt the same way about Hyperion by Dan Simmons. Went in not knowing or caring when it was written and some themes felt played out, but realizing it was 1989 cast it in a totally different light for me. Weird how that works.

snapcaster 2y ago
Man i was so disappointed by hyperion. felt like they didn't really go anywhere satisfying with the premise
- marssaxman 2y ago
  I felt similarly - it was like "here's a series of disconnected vignettes that don't really go anywhere or add up to anything; enjoy" - but I didn't, especially. I wondered for a long time if there was something about the novel I just wasn't understanding, which would make it make sense, but eventually I decided what I was missing is that some people are totally fine with a series of disconnected vignettes that don't really go anywhere, so long as they enjoy the writing along the way.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    You described my journey with the book exactly! glad to know i wasn't the only one
ecshafer 2y ago
The first Hyperion book was great, Canterbury Tales in Space is a great concept and well done. The full series, I think Simmons couldn't really find a good satisfying ending.
stewarts 2y ago
I read it (the full 4 book series) as a teen prior to 2000. Very different experience! One of my favorite reads of all time.

sporkydistance 2y ago

I think with books like Neuromancer it is a matter of "when" you read it. If you read it today, it seems trite, like Snow Crash. If you read Neuromancer in 1984, it was mind-blowing. Same thing with Snow Crash in 1992. These books were decades ahead of their time. Neuromancer is more like PKDick, in that they are adult-themed books more about personal problems with sci-fi on the side, and it is actually part one of a number of book with the same character (e.g., Count Zero). That can be boring to someone expecting lots of "pew-pew-pew I hacked the mainframe". Snow Crash also didn't really age well in terms of dorkiness (cyberdogs breaking the sound barrier, nukes attached to a biker-thugs brain, gangs in cyberspace ?!?!?, etc.), but at the time we were all floored by the new concepts.

rout39574 2y ago
Oh come on; "Jack the sound barrier; bring the noise."... That still rocks, or slaps, or whatever. And you can't tell me you don't shiver if someone says "I'm sure he'll listen to reason.."
foobarchu 2y ago
> adult-themed books more about personal problems with sci-fi on the side I'm not sure I agree with this. I love the sprawl trilogy, but my feeling has always been that the entire plots are excuses for the big set piece events. The characters exist so that he can write vivid scenes and try to paint a picture, everything between is just so they get to the right places for him to do that. > it is actually part one of a number of book with the same character (e.g., Count Zero). I don't think there's were any character overlaps between Neuromancer and Count Zero, are there? Mona Lisa Overdrive certainly does.
lupusreal 2y ago
I think Neuromancer is timeless and will prove to have extremely long-lasting appeal, even long after the ideas in it are hopelessly dated, because of how stylish it is. It will last like Lovecraft gas because of how much fun it is to read. Contrast with Asimov, who's books were carried by ideas but had a very tedious style.
zem 2y ago

Semaphor 2y ago

Almost all space opera is positive, not depressing. In case you are into that.

pfdietz 2y ago
Well, until you realize how unbelievable the entire genre is. Then it's just aggravating. Old man yelling at book "don't you realize your tropes are completely stale??"
- Semaphor 2y ago
  I highly enjoy it, thank you very much
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    Sure, that's a state that will persist until it doesn't. One common barrier to suspension of disbelief is the Fermi Problem. A great deal of space opera just ignores it, but once you take the argument seriously it ruins much of the world building. If I want to ignore rationality of the world design and just read human achievement porn I'll head over to r/HFY.
    - philipkglass 2y ago
      I thought that you were going to condemn the genre's ubiquitous faster-than-light communications/travel. I approach space opera as a specialized variant of high fantasy, where the usual tropes are as genre-acceptable as wizards and ghosts.
      - pfdietz 2y ago
        That's an external inconsistency, but SF is typically allowed one such assumption. Ignoring the Fermi Argument is an internal inconsistency. The world just doesn't work on its own terms.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

01100011 2y ago

This reminds me of a comment I read years ago, maybe on HN, from a younger person who thought The Beatles were completely overrated. Like, sure, because you grew up on music that wouldn't have existed without them. You heard them thousands of times already in tribute from younger bands you like. Context matters. There are cultural classics you just cannot understand without having lived in the times.

plastic3169 2y ago
I love The Beatles. My favorite band maybe. Yet this year in Grammys the rock awards went to The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. Makes me sad. Although I can appreciate and consume ”old” culture there is something important in that the cutting or derivative edge keeps moving forward reflecting current times.

jayd16 2y ago

Even with the now common sci-fi themes I still thought Neuromsncer was a fun read. It's basically the Italian Job or Ocean's 11 and the action of the heist pays off.

BarryMilo 2y ago
You might be right, I should give it another go