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These are the same people that insist we arm elementary school teachers and expect those teachers to someday pull the trigger on a child instead of having prope

These are the same people that insist we arm elementary school teachers and expect those teachers to someday pull the trigger on a child instead of having proper gun laws. There is no irony.

ThunderSizzle 2y ago
I don't expect that, so I won't be using public schools. I have no illusion that safety or education is an actual concern in public schools in general.
- DiscourseFan 2y ago
  They do, but safety and social control go hand in hand. In any case, its not as if your kid is safer at a private school. Kids are violent, no matter where they are; maybe you remember going through school yourself?
imchillyb 2y ago
When have gun laws ever stopped a shooting? When have criminals EVER followed law, code, rules, or even a suggestion from their fellow citizens? Believing laws deter criminals is almost criminally insane and beggars all logic. After all of the accumulated evidence against your belief, you still believe laws deter criminality. The death penalty doesn’t deter criminals. How could words possibly have an effect?
- plopilop 2y ago
  > When have gun laws ever stopped a shooting? Have you heard of Australia? https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2018/03/13/gun-laws-stopped-mass-shootings-in-australia.html https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2018/03/13/gun-l...
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Australia has no land borders. It's one of the easiest places to secure, and thus it makes sense to do so.
- mikepurvis 2y ago
  Because most of gun safety is not actually about criminals; it’s about regular people with legal firearms becoming involved in crimes of passion, tragic accidents, and suicides. America is the worst industrialized country for gun deaths because the guns are present to enable those things to happen. Countless studies show that the key to reducing gun deaths is not more training, more “good guys”, or whatever else — it’s simply having fewer gun households period.
  - Viliam1234 2y ago
    Somehow, in Switzerland every household has a gun, and yet they don't have the American levels of crime.
    - mikepurvis 2y ago
      And indeed, a high proportion of gun deaths in Switzerland are suicides: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzerland#Firearm-related_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzer... This tracks with: - High gun ownership - Strong gun responsibility culture (guns are safely stored, so fewer accidents) - Strong gun regulation (guns require permits that are not issued to those with criminal records)
- spinningslate 2y ago
  The US firearm mortality rate was 5x that of the nearest high-income countries in 2019 [0]. The US had 120 firearms per 100 people in 2018 with 80% of all homicides being gun-related [1]. Those statistics may not be wholly attributable to differences in gun laws but it seems a stretch to suggest they're unrelated. [0] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/us-midst-public-health-crisis-gun-violence-the-commonwealth-fund-ydc5c/?trackingId=8XRrLGIYSE6JYg7RXAON9Q%3D%3D https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/us-midst-public-health-crisis... [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081
- plagiarist 2y ago
  You're really going with a position like, "criminals will disobey laws therefore it is pointless to have laws," huh?
toolz 2y ago
If you think proper gun laws would keep guns away from evil people in the US, please explain to me why the war against illegal drugs in the US has been losing since the day it started. Sure, some places in the world can successfully limit gun access. Those places aren't close and even bordered by the most active cartels in the world. Just as a fun thought exercise, consider that to grow the plant necessary to produce just a single drug, cocaine, for the country, every year. It takes at least 300,000 acres, or roughly the size of los angeles. That's after decades of optimizations to reduce the amount of land needed. It's also only for one drug among a vast number that are regularly consumed in the US. In relation, you can 3d print guns at home. Successful builds have been made from some of the cheapest 3d printers you can find.
- shigawire 2y ago
  Drugs are more addictive than guns typically. I am not sure your comparison is useful.
  - toolz 2y ago
    yet in the US just as many households have reported using drugs as own guns
- LeapingLennie 2y ago
  Regarding the drugs vs guns comparison, I bet you'd find that every country that has implemented reasonably effective gun control still has thriving illicit drug markets. Australia is just as zealous at persecuting the drug war as the US but continues to fail at that whereas gun crime is very low.
  - toolz 2y ago
    Australians, for example, don't want guns relative to Americans. It's not hard to ban things people don't want. Prior to 1996 gun laws in Australia, home ownership was like 15%. In the US it's been as high as 45% in recent years. As far as the number of guns owned, we have more guns than people. So yeah, taking a country with 1/3rd the ownership down 75% with regulation that isn't bordered by cartels isn't that shocking to me. You would never achieve that in the US and that's incredibly obvious to me by looking at the gun crime stats in places that do already have gun control laws in the US.

These are the same people that insist we arm elementary school teachers and expect those teachers to someday pull the trigger on a child instead of having proper gun laws. There is no irony.

ThunderSizzle 2y ago

I don't expect that, so I won't be using public schools. I have no illusion that safety or education is an actual concern in public schools in general.

DiscourseFan 2y ago
They do, but safety and social control go hand in hand. In any case, its not as if your kid is safer at a private school. Kids are violent, no matter where they are; maybe you remember going through school yourself?

imchillyb 2y ago

When have gun laws ever stopped a shooting? When have criminals EVER followed law, code, rules, or even a suggestion from their fellow citizens? Believing laws deter criminals is almost criminally insane and beggars all logic. After all of the accumulated evidence against your belief, you still believe laws deter criminality. The death penalty doesn’t deter criminals. How could words possibly have an effect?

plopilop 2y ago
> When have gun laws ever stopped a shooting? Have you heard of Australia? https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2018/03/13/gun-laws-stopped-mass-shootings-in-australia.html https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2018/03/13/gun-l...
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Australia has no land borders. It's one of the easiest places to secure, and thus it makes sense to do so.
mikepurvis 2y ago
Because most of gun safety is not actually about criminals; it’s about regular people with legal firearms becoming involved in crimes of passion, tragic accidents, and suicides. America is the worst industrialized country for gun deaths because the guns are present to enable those things to happen. Countless studies show that the key to reducing gun deaths is not more training, more “good guys”, or whatever else — it’s simply having fewer gun households period.
- Viliam1234 2y ago
  Somehow, in Switzerland every household has a gun, and yet they don't have the American levels of crime.
  - mikepurvis 2y ago
    And indeed, a high proportion of gun deaths in Switzerland are suicides: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzerland#Firearm-related_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzer... This tracks with: - High gun ownership - Strong gun responsibility culture (guns are safely stored, so fewer accidents) - Strong gun regulation (guns require permits that are not issued to those with criminal records)
spinningslate 2y ago
The US firearm mortality rate was 5x that of the nearest high-income countries in 2019 [0]. The US had 120 firearms per 100 people in 2018 with 80% of all homicides being gun-related [1]. Those statistics may not be wholly attributable to differences in gun laws but it seems a stretch to suggest they're unrelated. [0] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/us-midst-public-health-crisis-gun-violence-the-commonwealth-fund-ydc5c/?trackingId=8XRrLGIYSE6JYg7RXAON9Q%3D%3D https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/us-midst-public-health-crisis... [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081
plagiarist 2y ago
You're really going with a position like, "criminals will disobey laws therefore it is pointless to have laws," huh?

toolz 2y ago

If you think proper gun laws would keep guns away from evil people in the US, please explain to me why the war against illegal drugs in the US has been losing since the day it started. Sure, some places in the world can successfully limit gun access. Those places aren't close and even bordered by the most active cartels in the world. Just as a fun thought exercise, consider that to grow the plant necessary to produce just a single drug, cocaine, for the country, every year. It takes at least 300,000 acres, or roughly the size of los angeles. That's after decades of optimizations to reduce the amount of land needed. It's also only for one drug among a vast number that are regularly consumed in the US. In relation, you can 3d print guns at home. Successful builds have been made from some of the cheapest 3d printers you can find.

shigawire 2y ago
Drugs are more addictive than guns typically. I am not sure your comparison is useful.
- toolz 2y ago
  yet in the US just as many households have reported using drugs as own guns
LeapingLennie 2y ago
Regarding the drugs vs guns comparison, I bet you'd find that every country that has implemented reasonably effective gun control still has thriving illicit drug markets. Australia is just as zealous at persecuting the drug war as the US but continues to fail at that whereas gun crime is very low.
- toolz 2y ago
  Australians, for example, don't want guns relative to Americans. It's not hard to ban things people don't want. Prior to 1996 gun laws in Australia, home ownership was like 15%. In the US it's been as high as 45% in recent years. As far as the number of guns owned, we have more guns than people. So yeah, taking a country with 1/3rd the ownership down 75% with regulation that isn't bordered by cartels isn't that shocking to me. You would never achieve that in the US and that's incredibly obvious to me by looking at the gun crime stats in places that do already have gun control laws in the US.