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> get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising In an environment where information is shared freely and widely. > So of course if we build a cou

> get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising In an environment where information is shared freely and widely. > So of course if we build a couple of naval ships every decade, maybe a giant train line every 30 years or similar, it will be done terribly. That's a reasonable explanation but it's not exclusive. You can still face these challenges and not do a terrible job. There is plenty of evidence this is the case. > Then there’s lots of hand wringing about how we can’t do this any more. Of course we can. > so far behind China in industrial capacity now. We just don't want to pay first world wages for the work. The arbitrage has been beneficial for a few decades as long as you're not concerned about high quality capacity. Which is what you'd want for a war.

Yeul 2y ago
In the 1970s the Netherlands tried to save it's shipyards (from Japan and Korea at the time China was nothing). There's just no point to it your oil tankers end up more expensive so nobody will want to buy them.
- bluGill 2y ago
  There is the real problem. World demand doesn't need enough oil tankers to support the level of automation needed to be competetive. navy is different in that it is worth building your own and having that automation just in case.
- timewizard 2y ago
  > In the 1970s the Netherlands tried to save it's shipyards They have several successful ship building companies today. Is your point that it didn't work? That doesn't seem born out by the reality of today. > There's just no point to it your oil tankers end up more expensive so nobody will want to buy them. So the quality is equivalent? And there are no buyers who require high quality in their ships?
  - Neonlicht 2y ago
    The Netherlands still has very successful shipyards but they focus on government contracts (navy, coastguard, ferries) and (super) yachts. The giant container ships and mammoth tankers are all built in Asia.
fuzzfactor 2y ago
>In an environment where information is shared freely and widely. Umm, no. Ever heard of loose lips sinking anyhing?
- timewizard 2y ago
  You're going with war propaganda to make a point about commerce?
  - fuzzfactor 2y ago
    Well I would have to figure it's quite common for people not to have a clue who Lorne Greene was, and probably don't attend that many big old international ships in the average year for very many decades either.
jjk166 2y ago
> > get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising > In an environment where information is shared freely and widely. The whole reason you need to do it yourself is because information does not get shared freely and widely. You practice, you learn, you know for the future. > > So of course if we build a couple of naval ships every decade, maybe a giant train line every 30 years or similar, it will be done terribly. > That's a reasonable explanation but it's not exclusive. You can still face these challenges and not do a terrible job. There is plenty of evidence this is the case. No, there is no way to avoid doing a terrible job when you are out of practice. Maybe you can mitigate some of the worst issues and outperform expectations for someone out of practice, but you'll never be able to compete with those who do it regularly. > > so far behind China in industrial capacity now. > We just don't want to pay first world wages for the work. No, even if the chinese were paid the exact same wages as americans they'ed be able to outperform because, having done this work for decades, they've gotten good at it. They've found new and innovative methods to make things more efficiently, they've invested in machinery and infrastructure to be more productive, and they've cultivated an industrial culture which makes it easier to learn and apply such lessons going forward.

Yeul 2y ago

In the 1970s the Netherlands tried to save it's shipyards (from Japan and Korea at the time China was nothing). There's just no point to it your oil tankers end up more expensive so nobody will want to buy them.

bluGill 2y ago
There is the real problem. World demand doesn't need enough oil tankers to support the level of automation needed to be competetive. navy is different in that it is worth building your own and having that automation just in case.
timewizard 2y ago
> In the 1970s the Netherlands tried to save it's shipyards They have several successful ship building companies today. Is your point that it didn't work? That doesn't seem born out by the reality of today. > There's just no point to it your oil tankers end up more expensive so nobody will want to buy them. So the quality is equivalent? And there are no buyers who require high quality in their ships?
- Neonlicht 2y ago
  The Netherlands still has very successful shipyards but they focus on government contracts (navy, coastguard, ferries) and (super) yachts. The giant container ships and mammoth tankers are all built in Asia.

fuzzfactor 2y ago

>In an environment where information is shared freely and widely. Umm, no. Ever heard of loose lips sinking anyhing?

timewizard 2y ago
You're going with war propaganda to make a point about commerce?
- fuzzfactor 2y ago
  Well I would have to figure it's quite common for people not to have a clue who Lorne Greene was, and probably don't attend that many big old international ships in the average year for very many decades either.

jjk166 2y ago

> > get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising > In an environment where information is shared freely and widely. The whole reason you need to do it yourself is because information does not get shared freely and widely. You practice, you learn, you know for the future. > > So of course if we build a couple of naval ships every decade, maybe a giant train line every 30 years or similar, it will be done terribly. > That's a reasonable explanation but it's not exclusive. You can still face these challenges and not do a terrible job. There is plenty of evidence this is the case. No, there is no way to avoid doing a terrible job when you are out of practice. Maybe you can mitigate some of the worst issues and outperform expectations for someone out of practice, but you'll never be able to compete with those who do it regularly. > > so far behind China in industrial capacity now. > We just don't want to pay first world wages for the work. No, even if the chinese were paid the exact same wages as americans they'ed be able to outperform because, having done this work for decades, they've gotten good at it. They've found new and innovative methods to make things more efficiently, they've invested in machinery and infrastructure to be more productive, and they've cultivated an industrial culture which makes it easier to learn and apply such lessons going forward.