2 ms·

Is it a coincidence that all these quality life things start to pop up after C++ is facing real competition for the first time? Seems a bit odd to add print aft

by Laiho 2y ago

Is it a coincidence that all these quality life things start to pop up after C++ is facing real competition for the first time? Seems a bit odd to add print after using std::out for 30 years.

Capricorn2481 2y ago
What is this referring to? I would imagine whatever you consider recent competition is actually not that recent.
- vanviegen 2y ago
  On the time scale of c++, rust is very recent. :-)
  - tialaramex 2y ago
    Nerd alt-history story: What if Graydon decides he should attend WG21 and so instead of Rust what we get is a decade of attempts to fix C++ and reform the process, followed by burn out?
    - hnlmorg 2y ago
      Then we'd be supporting a different language that shares the same or similar ideals as Rust. Whether that's something already in existence or something entirely new. Rust isn't really that unique, there are plenty of other safe languages out there. And if Graydon was alone in wanting something like Rust then Rust wouldn't have grown in popularity like it has. Rust exists because enough people thought there was a need for Rust to exist. So if that wasn't Graydon with Rust, then it would have been someone else with something else. This isn't meant to take anything away from Graydon nor Rust. Just saying that innovations seldom happen in silos. They're usually a result of teams of people lusting for change.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        Rust was helped by being a Mozilla language, and some of the personalities it had around it. The big plus of the language was proving that Cyclone ideas to improve C, from AT&T research project were sound and could be made mainstream. And now other languages are building on it as well, that is why Swift, Chapel, Haskell, OCaml, D are also having a go at a mix of linear types, affine types and effects. However many folks credit Rust for type system features that are actually available in any ML derived language, or Ada/SPARK, so it isn't as if knowledge is that well spread.
        hnlmorg 2y ago
        > Rust was helped by being a Mozilla language, and some of the personalities it had around it. Indeed. But my point is there was already widespread movement behind building a programming language. So if Mozilla hadn’t taken charge then I’m certain someone will. My point is that Rust was born from a wider desire for change rather than that desire existing because of Rust. Thus that desire would have been met in one form or another regardless of the invention of Rust.
      - rat87 2y ago
        I think rust was helped by being part of Mozilla and really helped when they got experienced devs (guys who made ruby Bundler) to build the Cargo package manager pre 1.0 https://web.archive.org/web/20221206052719/https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2014-March/009090.html https://web.archive.org/web/20221206052719/https://mail.mozi... And helped a bit when they took a lot of stuff out the stdlib into packages for the new package manager. And helped a lot with a heavy focus pretty early on great compiler messages (inspired by elm) and with a focus on tools and documentation more generally. Like a lot of things in life, rust was in the right place at the right time to get popular. I do think the deep want for something better and safer then c++ helped but they made a lot of good choices(not necessarily the best choices but good enough choices) and had some money backing them. I think it was far from inevitable that some other language to compete with c++ would have come out anytime soon if rust hadn't been around (and hadn't made good enough choices). It might have happened but decent chances it wouldn't have.

by Laiho 2y ago

Is it a coincidence that all these quality life things start to pop up after C++ is facing real competition for the first time? Seems a bit odd to add print after using std::out for 30 years.

Capricorn2481 2y ago

What is this referring to? I would imagine whatever you consider recent competition is actually not that recent.

vanviegen 2y ago
On the time scale of c++, rust is very recent. :-)
- tialaramex 2y ago
  Nerd alt-history story: What if Graydon decides he should attend WG21 and so instead of Rust what we get is a decade of attempts to fix C++ and reform the process, followed by burn out?
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    Then we'd be supporting a different language that shares the same or similar ideals as Rust. Whether that's something already in existence or something entirely new. Rust isn't really that unique, there are plenty of other safe languages out there. And if Graydon was alone in wanting something like Rust then Rust wouldn't have grown in popularity like it has. Rust exists because enough people thought there was a need for Rust to exist. So if that wasn't Graydon with Rust, then it would have been someone else with something else. This isn't meant to take anything away from Graydon nor Rust. Just saying that innovations seldom happen in silos. They're usually a result of teams of people lusting for change.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Rust was helped by being a Mozilla language, and some of the personalities it had around it. The big plus of the language was proving that Cyclone ideas to improve C, from AT&T research project were sound and could be made mainstream. And now other languages are building on it as well, that is why Swift, Chapel, Haskell, OCaml, D are also having a go at a mix of linear types, affine types and effects. However many folks credit Rust for type system features that are actually available in any ML derived language, or Ada/SPARK, so it isn't as if knowledge is that well spread.
      - hnlmorg 2y ago
        > Rust was helped by being a Mozilla language, and some of the personalities it had around it. Indeed. But my point is there was already widespread movement behind building a programming language. So if Mozilla hadn’t taken charge then I’m certain someone will. My point is that Rust was born from a wider desire for change rather than that desire existing because of Rust. Thus that desire would have been met in one form or another regardless of the invention of Rust.
    - rat87 2y ago
      I think rust was helped by being part of Mozilla and really helped when they got experienced devs (guys who made ruby Bundler) to build the Cargo package manager pre 1.0 https://web.archive.org/web/20221206052719/https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2014-March/009090.html https://web.archive.org/web/20221206052719/https://mail.mozi... And helped a bit when they took a lot of stuff out the stdlib into packages for the new package manager. And helped a lot with a heavy focus pretty early on great compiler messages (inspired by elm) and with a focus on tools and documentation more generally. Like a lot of things in life, rust was in the right place at the right time to get popular. I do think the deep want for something better and safer then c++ helped but they made a lot of good choices(not necessarily the best choices but good enough choices) and had some money backing them. I think it was far from inevitable that some other language to compete with c++ would have come out anytime soon if rust hadn't been around (and hadn't made good enough choices). It might have happened but decent chances it wouldn't have.