3 ms·

Not to be the one to point out the pink elephant, but the Hugo Awards became somewhat politicized a decade or so ago and identity politics started to feature he

Not to be the one to point out the pink elephant, but the Hugo Awards became somewhat politicized a decade or so ago and identity politics started to feature heavily into selections. If your criteria doesn't include that then the awards are now probably meaningless. But go back to the past, and there's a reason they used to have such prestige associated with them. For instance in the 60s some winners were Starship Troopers, Man in the High Castle, Stranger in a Strange Land, Dune, and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress! Come to think of it not sure if that says more about the 60s or the award though. Cripes there was something in the water back then.

watwut 2y ago
Yes, 60s famous as period when the gender of the author or characters did not mattered in the slightest. It was totally only later when they started to matter, sure.
- kurisufag 2y ago
  identity politics sneakily becoming a required element in media (whether that be for genuine representation reasons, appeals to that market, whatever) isn't a necessary result of equitability in writing.
  - watwut 2y ago
    Compared to era when female characters and writers were excluded openly ... I mean common. It is absurd to use the era where identity (gender, race) was key determinant of what will happen, before anything else.
    - machomaster 2y ago
      Do you have any evidence that such alleged exclusion of good writing was common and disproportional compared to male writers?
- somenameforme 2y ago
  Of course it mattered, but it didn't define the results. Le Guin won it multiple times. And as far back as 1956, the third Hugo ever, a female author made it to the short list. But they weren't winning or being nominated because of their sex. They were just exceptional authors who happened to be female, which is as it should be.
  - watwut 2y ago
    Meanwhile male authors had to be less exceptional to win or succeed. Simple as that. Men had lower bar, every step of the way. Also, claim that hugo winners won only because of their gender is crap. They won't the vite fairly. Unlike sad puppies, they did not even needed politically motivated coordination for that.
    - somenameforme 2y ago
      What authors of the past were neglected in your opinion, or perhaps unfairly promoted? In modern times I think this is fairly easy to demonstrate. Books like Project Hail Mary are insufficient to win, while the most winning works are not especially exceptional. Those that are, perhaps The Three Body Problem, tend be the exception rather than the rule. The vote also is not fair. People publicly organize voting cliques on e.g. Reddit (to say nothing of what's happening in private), and the new system is extremely exploitable. But I think that's beside the point. The issue is the outcome. The Hugos used to not only reliably reflect the best in genre works, but also select works that would often be talked about decades later. How they achieved that is irrelevant, only that they used to be able to do so, and now do not. I think the groups that coopt, or try to coopt, these sort of things (which obviously also includes the Puppy stuff), fail to realize that the prestige of something is not based on that thing itself - but on the value of that which it promotes. If MIT just started enrolling 'merely above average' students and printing out diplomas, then they'd quickly lose their prestige. The same thing has happened here.
      - nicolas_t 2y ago
        I mean Project Hail Mary is also far from being exceptional. I didn't dislike the book and it was enjoyable but I would never think it deserves an award. In particular, the scenes with the alien fell really flat. Now I haven't read the winner for best novel of 2022 and to be honest I haven't read any amazing novel published in 2021.

watwut 2y ago

Yes, 60s famous as period when the gender of the author or characters did not mattered in the slightest. It was totally only later when they started to matter, sure.

kurisufag 2y ago
identity politics sneakily becoming a required element in media (whether that be for genuine representation reasons, appeals to that market, whatever) isn't a necessary result of equitability in writing.
- watwut 2y ago
  Compared to era when female characters and writers were excluded openly ... I mean common. It is absurd to use the era where identity (gender, race) was key determinant of what will happen, before anything else.
  - machomaster 2y ago
    Do you have any evidence that such alleged exclusion of good writing was common and disproportional compared to male writers?
somenameforme 2y ago
Of course it mattered, but it didn't define the results. Le Guin won it multiple times. And as far back as 1956, the third Hugo ever, a female author made it to the short list. But they weren't winning or being nominated because of their sex. They were just exceptional authors who happened to be female, which is as it should be.
- watwut 2y ago
  Meanwhile male authors had to be less exceptional to win or succeed. Simple as that. Men had lower bar, every step of the way. Also, claim that hugo winners won only because of their gender is crap. They won't the vite fairly. Unlike sad puppies, they did not even needed politically motivated coordination for that.
  - somenameforme 2y ago
    What authors of the past were neglected in your opinion, or perhaps unfairly promoted? In modern times I think this is fairly easy to demonstrate. Books like Project Hail Mary are insufficient to win, while the most winning works are not especially exceptional. Those that are, perhaps The Three Body Problem, tend be the exception rather than the rule. The vote also is not fair. People publicly organize voting cliques on e.g. Reddit (to say nothing of what's happening in private), and the new system is extremely exploitable. But I think that's beside the point. The issue is the outcome. The Hugos used to not only reliably reflect the best in genre works, but also select works that would often be talked about decades later. How they achieved that is irrelevant, only that they used to be able to do so, and now do not. I think the groups that coopt, or try to coopt, these sort of things (which obviously also includes the Puppy stuff), fail to realize that the prestige of something is not based on that thing itself - but on the value of that which it promotes. If MIT just started enrolling 'merely above average' students and printing out diplomas, then they'd quickly lose their prestige. The same thing has happened here.
    - nicolas_t 2y ago
      I mean Project Hail Mary is also far from being exceptional. I didn't dislike the book and it was enjoyable but I would never think it deserves an award. In particular, the scenes with the alien fell really flat. Now I haven't read the winner for best novel of 2022 and to be honest I haven't read any amazing novel published in 2021.