4 ms·

Can you find a link for me if it’s not hard? https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63bc25b4d3bf7f262c5ad31f/The-economic-cost-of-gambling-related-harm

Can you find a link for me if it’s not hard? https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63bc25b4d3bf7f262c5ad31f/The-economic-cost-of-gambling-related-harm-in-England_evidence-update-2023.pdf#page6 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63bc25b4d3bf7... This looks fairly official and cites 1.05 to 1.77 billion £ in societal cost on page 6. That’s less than 14 billion £.

beejiu 2y ago
Even if you accept those figures (and the report itself says they are underestimates), in what other industry do we allow 10% of your topline revenue to directly result in suicide and depression?
- giantg2 2y ago
  Alcohol? Probably others.
- echoangle 2y ago
  Not suicide and depression but the tobacco industry is probably similar. I wouldn’t go as far as claiming 10% but sugar is probably not very healthy for society either. And I’m not even saying that gambling is fine or should be supported, I was just sceptical of the claim that the damages exceed the income.
  - Retric 2y ago
    I think a more compelling argument is damages exceed the profit even if they don’t exceed the gross revenue. It’s one of those things where yes people are forking over 14 billion per year, but that’s because they have 14 billion which would otherwise be spent on something else. Even just VAT on 14 billion gets close to the total tax revenue from UK gambling especially when you include other economic losses. So where’s the benefit?
spencerflem 2y ago
That links not bad, though like beiju said, it does mention "Looking from a wider societal perspective, there are a range of costs that have not, or have only been partially quantified here (such as crime, education, cultural harms, impacts on relationships and wider impacts on the families of gamblers). For these reasons, we believe the figures of £412.9 million and £635 to £1,355.5 million to be an underestimate of the true scale of the total economic burden associated with harmful gambling."
- echoangle 2y ago
  Ok, but „we’re estimating about 1.5 billion but it’s likely more“ is far from „it’s absolutely more that 14 billion and that’s easy to find“. I’m not even saying I don’t believe that it’s more, it could be, but I don’t think there’s any proof of that.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    you know what, fine. you win. you caught me in a bad mood, and I was sure of something and i was wrong. i still think it is perverse to argue in favor of gambling companies - an "industry" that is at best zero sum, simply reallocating money from one hand to an arguably less deserving hand. but in practice is dramatically negative sum when families are torn apart.
deleted 2y ago
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Retric 2y ago
Edit: “Gross Gambling Yield (GGY) of British gambling industry (2021 to 2022): £14.1 billion” Which is simply revenue before costs not actual tax revenue it even excludes loyalty programs with cash back rewards on losses, actual tax revenues are dramatically lower. https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/guidance/regulatory-returns-guidance/rr-guidance-how-to-calculate-your-gross-gambling-yield-ggy https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/guidance/regulatory-re... That’s looking at harm specifically not economic costs. Direct taxes to the state are £3.3 billion, but that also ignores missing tax revenue both directly from people spending money on gambling instead of other activities and missing revenue from that economic harm.
- Retric 2y ago
  Just to put some numbers to lost revenue from other spending. UK VAT is 20%. 14B in direct spending + 1.5 Billion spending from avoided economic harm at 20% vat is 15.5 - 15.5 /1.2 = 2.6 billion in “missed” revenue. So offsetting ~1.5 billion in harm is an optimistic net gain of 0.7 billion in tax revenue.

beejiu 2y ago

Even if you accept those figures (and the report itself says they are underestimates), in what other industry do we allow 10% of your topline revenue to directly result in suicide and depression?

giantg2 2y ago
Alcohol? Probably others.
echoangle 2y ago
Not suicide and depression but the tobacco industry is probably similar. I wouldn’t go as far as claiming 10% but sugar is probably not very healthy for society either. And I’m not even saying that gambling is fine or should be supported, I was just sceptical of the claim that the damages exceed the income.
- Retric 2y ago
  I think a more compelling argument is damages exceed the profit even if they don’t exceed the gross revenue. It’s one of those things where yes people are forking over 14 billion per year, but that’s because they have 14 billion which would otherwise be spent on something else. Even just VAT on 14 billion gets close to the total tax revenue from UK gambling especially when you include other economic losses. So where’s the benefit?

spencerflem 2y ago

That links not bad, though like beiju said, it does mention "Looking from a wider societal perspective, there are a range of costs that have not, or have only been partially quantified here (such as crime, education, cultural harms, impacts on relationships and wider impacts on the families of gamblers). For these reasons, we believe the figures of £412.9 million and £635 to £1,355.5 million to be an underestimate of the true scale of the total economic burden associated with harmful gambling."

echoangle 2y ago
Ok, but „we’re estimating about 1.5 billion but it’s likely more“ is far from „it’s absolutely more that 14 billion and that’s easy to find“. I’m not even saying I don’t believe that it’s more, it could be, but I don’t think there’s any proof of that.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  you know what, fine. you win. you caught me in a bad mood, and I was sure of something and i was wrong. i still think it is perverse to argue in favor of gambling companies - an "industry" that is at best zero sum, simply reallocating money from one hand to an arguably less deserving hand. but in practice is dramatically negative sum when families are torn apart.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Retric 2y ago

Edit: “Gross Gambling Yield (GGY) of British gambling industry (2021 to 2022): £14.1 billion” Which is simply revenue before costs not actual tax revenue it even excludes loyalty programs with cash back rewards on losses, actual tax revenues are dramatically lower. https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/guidance/regulatory-returns-guidance/rr-guidance-how-to-calculate-your-gross-gambling-yield-ggy https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/guidance/regulatory-re... That’s looking at harm specifically not economic costs. Direct taxes to the state are £3.3 billion, but that also ignores missing tax revenue both directly from people spending money on gambling instead of other activities and missing revenue from that economic harm.

Retric 2y ago
Just to put some numbers to lost revenue from other spending. UK VAT is 20%. 14B in direct spending + 1.5 Billion spending from avoided economic harm at 20% vat is 15.5 - 15.5 /1.2 = 2.6 billion in “missed” revenue. So offsetting ~1.5 billion in harm is an optimistic net gain of 0.7 billion in tax revenue.