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Strongly disagree. The worst thing that’s happened to educational theory is the idea that everything needs to be fun and exciting to be worth doing. Some stuff

Strongly disagree. The worst thing that’s happened to educational theory is the idea that everything needs to be fun and exciting to be worth doing. Some stuff is worth doing because it works, even if it’s a little boring. SRS is one of those things.

hombre_fatal 2y ago
If an approach is so boring that you don't do it, then what does it matter how effective it might be? Either find a way to make it less boring or switch up the approach. Whatever gets you to keep a habit is what's important. Same with any habit we want to develop. Cooking. Exercise. Language learning. Building software. Meet people.
- keiferski 2y ago
  Because realistically doing your Anki cards should take 10-30 minutes a day, maximum. If you can’t slog through 30 minutes of learning vocabulary/etc. then the thing you’re learning isn’t very important to you. SRS isn’t about doing flash cards for hours on end, it’s about determining the maximum retention rate while doing the minimum amount of work. Even then, personally I don’t find Anki that boring at all. But I make custom cards that include audio, images, and other items.
  - frereubu 2y ago
    GP: If an approach is so boring that you don't do it... Either find a way to make it less boring... You: But I make custom cards that include audio, images, and other items. I think you're agreeing!
    - keiferski 2y ago
      Not really if the solution is to stop using SRS. In my experience the benefits are as good as the hype.
  - hombre_fatal 2y ago
    > If you can’t slog through 30 minutes of learning vocabulary/etc. then the thing you’re learning isn’t very important to you This obviously isn't the case if there's an alternative approach that does work for you. > Even then, personally I don’t find Anki that boring at all. Right, and you're having trouble picturing how something you get for free (or take for granted) has a cost for others. Isn't it obvious? Running 10km a day is a great way to stay in cardiovascular shape. If you like running, it might be a great daily habit for you. But would you say other people must not care about their body just because they're not willing to run 10km, but they are willing to bicycle, swim, or kickbox daily?
    - keiferski 2y ago
      I think you are dramatically undervaluing how effective SRS is. 30 minutes of doing flashcards with Anki will accomplish about 500% as many other learning activities in the same time, in my experience. So the point is that while SRS might be boring at times compared to other types of learning, the benefits are worth it. Effectiveness of learning does not correlate directly with enjoyment. To phrase this another way: yes, in general you should find learning methods that appeal to you. But spaced repetition is so effective that it’s worth implementing, even if you don’t enjoy it. Edit: using the metaphor that you added: if say, doing jumping jacks for 10 minutes burned 10x calories than every other exercise does in 60 minutes, and your goal is to lose weight, then yeah, it would seem a little silly to me to avoid doing jumping jacks because you don’t enjoy them. The benefits are worth the hassle.
      - Gud 2y ago
        The key modifier here being "in your experience". Perhaps for others, other methods are more effective.
        keiferski 2y ago
        The science behind spaced repetition isn’t really up for debate, though. I guess if you really hate SRS, don’t do it, but all signs point to it being worth the time.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    You know what is more effective than spaced repitition? Reading, listening, and doing to the thing you are interested in. Anki gives you fact that are disjointed from what you need. using the skill forces a study of what is important not facts that are of no use. i'm not saying spaced repititon is useless - it is a great beginners tool. However you need to move on as soon as possible. once you can use the skill that is better in gereral. Doctors use spaced repition more than most because there are a lot of rare things they will never encounter but mixed in is one rare thing they need to know instantly and they cannot know in advance what that thing is. Almost nothing else is both like that and doesn't allow time to look it up. note that reading/doing something is itself spaced repititon. It isn't algorithemic but it is still randon spacing of things you need to know and the more you need it the more often it repeats
    - keiferski 2y ago
      Anki is just a software tool for presenting pieces of data at an optimal rate for memory. It’s perfect possible to use it for reading, listening, or even prompting activities.
    - pessimizer 2y ago
      > You know what is more effective than spaced repitition? Reading, listening, and doing to the thing you are interested in. No, they are not more effective, they are less effective. The fact that they are less effective is the only reason that people do spaced repetition. It takes less time to learn a fact if you optimize for the way memory works. Reading, listening, and doing the thing you are interested in builds memory just like spaced repetition does, just in a haphazard, random way. > note that reading/doing something is itself spaced repititon. But worse. There are plenty of things that simply can't be learned by spaced repetition because nobody has come up with a good way to do them, and/or they are physical. But some facts simply have to be memorized, and when doing the thing you will have to recall them. You can either look them up every time you have to use them, and a) forget completely if there's too large a gap between incidents of having to look a thing up, or b) spend all day studying something that you'll completely forget in a week. Spaced repetition is about using a timing trick to make those facts reflexive and long-lasting.
- colin_jack 2y ago
  > If an approach is so boring that you don't do it, then what does it matter how effective it might be? Yeah true, but an obvious argument is that this is where discipline comes in. If you are one of the people Anki works for, then you have to find the level of discipline required to stick with it.

hombre_fatal 2y ago

If an approach is so boring that you don't do it, then what does it matter how effective it might be? Either find a way to make it less boring or switch up the approach. Whatever gets you to keep a habit is what's important. Same with any habit we want to develop. Cooking. Exercise. Language learning. Building software. Meet people.

keiferski 2y ago
Because realistically doing your Anki cards should take 10-30 minutes a day, maximum. If you can’t slog through 30 minutes of learning vocabulary/etc. then the thing you’re learning isn’t very important to you. SRS isn’t about doing flash cards for hours on end, it’s about determining the maximum retention rate while doing the minimum amount of work. Even then, personally I don’t find Anki that boring at all. But I make custom cards that include audio, images, and other items.
- frereubu 2y ago
  GP: If an approach is so boring that you don't do it... Either find a way to make it less boring... You: But I make custom cards that include audio, images, and other items. I think you're agreeing!
  - keiferski 2y ago
    Not really if the solution is to stop using SRS. In my experience the benefits are as good as the hype.
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  > If you can’t slog through 30 minutes of learning vocabulary/etc. then the thing you’re learning isn’t very important to you This obviously isn't the case if there's an alternative approach that does work for you. > Even then, personally I don’t find Anki that boring at all. Right, and you're having trouble picturing how something you get for free (or take for granted) has a cost for others. Isn't it obvious? Running 10km a day is a great way to stay in cardiovascular shape. If you like running, it might be a great daily habit for you. But would you say other people must not care about their body just because they're not willing to run 10km, but they are willing to bicycle, swim, or kickbox daily?
  - keiferski 2y ago
    I think you are dramatically undervaluing how effective SRS is. 30 minutes of doing flashcards with Anki will accomplish about 500% as many other learning activities in the same time, in my experience. So the point is that while SRS might be boring at times compared to other types of learning, the benefits are worth it. Effectiveness of learning does not correlate directly with enjoyment. To phrase this another way: yes, in general you should find learning methods that appeal to you. But spaced repetition is so effective that it’s worth implementing, even if you don’t enjoy it. Edit: using the metaphor that you added: if say, doing jumping jacks for 10 minutes burned 10x calories than every other exercise does in 60 minutes, and your goal is to lose weight, then yeah, it would seem a little silly to me to avoid doing jumping jacks because you don’t enjoy them. The benefits are worth the hassle.
    - Gud 2y ago
      The key modifier here being "in your experience". Perhaps for others, other methods are more effective.
      - keiferski 2y ago
        The science behind spaced repetition isn’t really up for debate, though. I guess if you really hate SRS, don’t do it, but all signs point to it being worth the time.
- bluGill 2y ago
  You know what is more effective than spaced repitition? Reading, listening, and doing to the thing you are interested in. Anki gives you fact that are disjointed from what you need. using the skill forces a study of what is important not facts that are of no use. i'm not saying spaced repititon is useless - it is a great beginners tool. However you need to move on as soon as possible. once you can use the skill that is better in gereral. Doctors use spaced repition more than most because there are a lot of rare things they will never encounter but mixed in is one rare thing they need to know instantly and they cannot know in advance what that thing is. Almost nothing else is both like that and doesn't allow time to look it up. note that reading/doing something is itself spaced repititon. It isn't algorithemic but it is still randon spacing of things you need to know and the more you need it the more often it repeats
  - keiferski 2y ago
    Anki is just a software tool for presenting pieces of data at an optimal rate for memory. It’s perfect possible to use it for reading, listening, or even prompting activities.
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    > You know what is more effective than spaced repitition? Reading, listening, and doing to the thing you are interested in. No, they are not more effective, they are less effective. The fact that they are less effective is the only reason that people do spaced repetition. It takes less time to learn a fact if you optimize for the way memory works. Reading, listening, and doing the thing you are interested in builds memory just like spaced repetition does, just in a haphazard, random way. > note that reading/doing something is itself spaced repititon. But worse. There are plenty of things that simply can't be learned by spaced repetition because nobody has come up with a good way to do them, and/or they are physical. But some facts simply have to be memorized, and when doing the thing you will have to recall them. You can either look them up every time you have to use them, and a) forget completely if there's too large a gap between incidents of having to look a thing up, or b) spend all day studying something that you'll completely forget in a week. Spaced repetition is about using a timing trick to make those facts reflexive and long-lasting.
colin_jack 2y ago
> If an approach is so boring that you don't do it, then what does it matter how effective it might be? Yeah true, but an obvious argument is that this is where discipline comes in. If you are one of the people Anki works for, then you have to find the level of discipline required to stick with it.