4 ms·

Calling it “established science” seems like an attempt to shut down scientific discourse and normalize gender dysphoria even though it is a complex topic that c

by afpx 2y ago

Calling it “established science” seems like an attempt to shut down scientific discourse and normalize gender dysphoria even though it is a complex topic that causes distress to many people and has ongoing ethical concerns. It becomes even more complex when considering the decades of funding of gender studies which has attempted to normalize and promote it rather than research solutions. Further complicating the issue are financial incentives that encourage treatments. And, there are social and legal incentives that encourage expanding the number of people with that diagnosis. For example, there currently seems to be a push to immediately affirm adolescents with histories of mental health conditions when a more cautious approach may be more helpful. Edit: Anecdotally, I have a transgender nephew, and three of my good friends have transgender children. Both of my best friend's two children are transgender. My friend went through a bitter divorce a few years ago and was estranged from his 17 year old son for over a year. When he next saw him, his son had already started irreversable treatment even though he hadn’t had any symptoms a year prior. To me, someone who experimented with what they call 'gender fluidity' as a teenager in the 90s, this all seems unusual and should be handled more cautiously.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
AlexandrB 2y ago
One aspect that I find alarming about gender dysmorphia as a diagnosis is that it seems to pathologize gender non-conformity. For example, in some circles it's more acceptable to be a trans man than a "butch" woman. And the diagnostic criteria for gender dysmorphia might put a butch woman in the "trans" bucket if she were to talk to a doctor. To me this is a betrayal of what feminism was after in the early 2000 - namely moving away from rigid gender stereotypes.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jagger27 2y ago
  You mean gender dysphoria. Body dysmorphia is also something trans people experience. You’re basically making the “they’re killing the twinks!” argument with absolutely no evidence for diagnosticians leading patients towards transition. My experience as a trans woman is that I had to fight my doctors to believe me, and this is a common experience in my circles. I know dozens of trans people, and not a single one was told by a doctor that they were trans. We call it the prime directive, and we even apply it between friends. You do not speak with authority on this topic.
- eastbound 2y ago
  If that means a man can enter the women’s bathrooms, then I’m against it.
  - steele 2y ago
    You're against doors. Save your hate energy for actual problems.
  - beedeebeedee 2y ago
    All this malice over bathroom use? How about we make bathrooms single stall and end this stupid hate
    - eastbound 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - beedeebeedee 2y ago
        > Do you let people self-identify, and there are many rapes caused by this, Citation needed. That sounds deeply dubious (as frankly the rest of your argument)
      - jagger27 2y ago
        The most rapes involving trans people are in men’s prisons where trans women are put. You’re very thinly veiled in your fascist rhetoric. If misused bathroom rape was the actual issue at play, men would simply push the fucking door open and rape the women you apparently care so deeply to protect. Men with motive to use the opposite bathroom would not go through the often sterilizing trouble of hormone replacement therapy when the doors are already unlocked. You tell on yourself badly with this argument, rightbound.
        zzrzzr 2y ago
        That's because male-on-male violence, including sexual violence, is endemic in many male prisons. How any particular male victim may identify is secondary to this safeguarding failure within the male prison system.
- ocschwar 2y ago
  What we're witnessing is active malice against two populations: people who are dysphoric and would like help to be comfortable in their own bodies, and people who are perfectly comfortable as they are and would like the rest of us to accept that they will not take measures to change their trans-gender physical characteristics. What we need is a campaign with a firm message of "hands off, all of them."
  - mbostleman 2y ago
    >>What we’re witnessing is active malice>> What do you think brought on this malice? What would cause 99.5% of the population to suddenly have malice against 0.5%? Was it spontaneous?
    - steele 2y ago
      Wealth inequality and the resurgence of fascism pressing it's monied thumb on the Overton window.
      - mbostleman 2y ago
        Ok, then how does that work, exactly? In 2021 a survey by the Pew Research Center found that about 4.5% of U.S. adults identify as gay, but when asked what percentage of the population they believe is gay, Americans on average estimated around 20%. Similarly, a study from Britain's NHS found that British youths were 50 times more likely to suffer from gender distress since 2011. To back that up, Reuters worked with Komodo Health recently and found a 3 times increase the diagnosis of gender dysphoria from 2017 - 2021. So with this context as a backdrop, and knowing that fascists and their money were behind it, did they manipulate narratives to create an impression amongst Americans that there are 5 times as many gay people as there actually are? And did they also create a sudden surge in demand for gender affirming care? Tactically, how did they go about that? Did they takeover Hollywood? The media? Was their plan to create a narrative that normalizes the fringe so as to ignite hatred towards that fringe? Sounds like a pretty clever chess game.
        2y ago
brookst 2y ago
I don’t understand this point of view at all. Gravity is established science and billions of dollars a year are spent studying it, including efforts to refute parts of our understanding. How does acknowledging the reality of current scientific understanding in any way “shut down” further exploration? It sounds like the opposite — that peoples’ discomfort with the current state of understanding should be a reason to revert science to a much older state and never mention the subject again.
- cratermoon 2y ago
  Typically, though not always, the people who complain about established science shutting down new research are the ones pushing crank and conspiracy theories.
  - afpx 2y ago
    I don't mind if you call me a 'crank'. At least I'm not being shouted down - and I appreciate that. It's important to understand that I believe that gender dysphoria is a real condition. I mainly question the scale, social dynamics, and the rapid cultural shift. I'm also concerned about the strife and (ironically) dysphoria that it causes. I am open to the idea that 10% of my adult friends actually have gender dysphoria and just aren't able to talk about it. However, given I knew zero people with gender dysphoria 25 years ago but now 10% of the adolescents (and two 4th graders!) that I know have gender dysphoria, it is a surprising change. Also, I feel like science should be open to scrutiny, and shutting down discussion only increases distrust. And, over the past 10 years, many people have been shut out from the conversation.
    - layla5alive 2y ago
      I'll just leave this graph here for you to reflect upon: https://archpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13690-023-01156-6/figures/2 https://archpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/...
      - deleted 2y ago
ocschwar 2y ago
There are two problems at play here. One is that the science involved pertains to mental health care, which means psychiatrists. Meaning the same specialty that tried psychotherapy and blaming "cold" mothers for autism, and then had a lobotomies for everyone fad, and then got too enamored with electroconvulsive therapy. I'm too young to have witnessed those, but I did personally see the effects when they launched the Drug of the Month Club in the 1990s. It's hard to look at how they treat gender dysphoria and not suspect it's yet another episode. BUT.... At the same time what's going on with the Republicans is sheer malice. And it must be fought on those grounds.

by afpx 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

AlexandrB 2y ago

One aspect that I find alarming about gender dysmorphia as a diagnosis is that it seems to pathologize gender non-conformity. For example, in some circles it's more acceptable to be a trans man than a "butch" woman. And the diagnostic criteria for gender dysmorphia might put a butch woman in the "trans" bucket if she were to talk to a doctor. To me this is a betrayal of what feminism was after in the early 2000 - namely moving away from rigid gender stereotypes.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jagger27 2y ago
You mean gender dysphoria. Body dysmorphia is also something trans people experience. You’re basically making the “they’re killing the twinks!” argument with absolutely no evidence for diagnosticians leading patients towards transition. My experience as a trans woman is that I had to fight my doctors to believe me, and this is a common experience in my circles. I know dozens of trans people, and not a single one was told by a doctor that they were trans. We call it the prime directive, and we even apply it between friends. You do not speak with authority on this topic.
eastbound 2y ago
If that means a man can enter the women’s bathrooms, then I’m against it.
- steele 2y ago
  You're against doors. Save your hate energy for actual problems.
- beedeebeedee 2y ago
  All this malice over bathroom use? How about we make bathrooms single stall and end this stupid hate
  - eastbound 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - beedeebeedee 2y ago
      > Do you let people self-identify, and there are many rapes caused by this, Citation needed. That sounds deeply dubious (as frankly the rest of your argument)
    - jagger27 2y ago
      The most rapes involving trans people are in men’s prisons where trans women are put. You’re very thinly veiled in your fascist rhetoric. If misused bathroom rape was the actual issue at play, men would simply push the fucking door open and rape the women you apparently care so deeply to protect. Men with motive to use the opposite bathroom would not go through the often sterilizing trouble of hormone replacement therapy when the doors are already unlocked. You tell on yourself badly with this argument, rightbound.
      - zzrzzr 2y ago
        That's because male-on-male violence, including sexual violence, is endemic in many male prisons. How any particular male victim may identify is secondary to this safeguarding failure within the male prison system.
ocschwar 2y ago
What we're witnessing is active malice against two populations: people who are dysphoric and would like help to be comfortable in their own bodies, and people who are perfectly comfortable as they are and would like the rest of us to accept that they will not take measures to change their trans-gender physical characteristics. What we need is a campaign with a firm message of "hands off, all of them."
- mbostleman 2y ago
  >>What we’re witnessing is active malice>> What do you think brought on this malice? What would cause 99.5% of the population to suddenly have malice against 0.5%? Was it spontaneous?
  - steele 2y ago
    Wealth inequality and the resurgence of fascism pressing it's monied thumb on the Overton window.
    - mbostleman 2y ago
      Ok, then how does that work, exactly? In 2021 a survey by the Pew Research Center found that about 4.5% of U.S. adults identify as gay, but when asked what percentage of the population they believe is gay, Americans on average estimated around 20%. Similarly, a study from Britain's NHS found that British youths were 50 times more likely to suffer from gender distress since 2011. To back that up, Reuters worked with Komodo Health recently and found a 3 times increase the diagnosis of gender dysphoria from 2017 - 2021. So with this context as a backdrop, and knowing that fascists and their money were behind it, did they manipulate narratives to create an impression amongst Americans that there are 5 times as many gay people as there actually are? And did they also create a sudden surge in demand for gender affirming care? Tactically, how did they go about that? Did they takeover Hollywood? The media? Was their plan to create a narrative that normalizes the fringe so as to ignite hatred towards that fringe? Sounds like a pretty clever chess game.
      - 2y ago

brookst 2y ago

I don’t understand this point of view at all. Gravity is established science and billions of dollars a year are spent studying it, including efforts to refute parts of our understanding. How does acknowledging the reality of current scientific understanding in any way “shut down” further exploration? It sounds like the opposite — that peoples’ discomfort with the current state of understanding should be a reason to revert science to a much older state and never mention the subject again.

cratermoon 2y ago
Typically, though not always, the people who complain about established science shutting down new research are the ones pushing crank and conspiracy theories.
- afpx 2y ago
  I don't mind if you call me a 'crank'. At least I'm not being shouted down - and I appreciate that. It's important to understand that I believe that gender dysphoria is a real condition. I mainly question the scale, social dynamics, and the rapid cultural shift. I'm also concerned about the strife and (ironically) dysphoria that it causes. I am open to the idea that 10% of my adult friends actually have gender dysphoria and just aren't able to talk about it. However, given I knew zero people with gender dysphoria 25 years ago but now 10% of the adolescents (and two 4th graders!) that I know have gender dysphoria, it is a surprising change. Also, I feel like science should be open to scrutiny, and shutting down discussion only increases distrust. And, over the past 10 years, many people have been shut out from the conversation.
  - layla5alive 2y ago
    I'll just leave this graph here for you to reflect upon: https://archpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13690-023-01156-6/figures/2 https://archpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/...
    - deleted 2y ago

ocschwar 2y ago

There are two problems at play here. One is that the science involved pertains to mental health care, which means psychiatrists. Meaning the same specialty that tried psychotherapy and blaming "cold" mothers for autism, and then had a lobotomies for everyone fad, and then got too enamored with electroconvulsive therapy. I'm too young to have witnessed those, but I did personally see the effects when they launched the Drug of the Month Club in the 1990s. It's hard to look at how they treat gender dysphoria and not suspect it's yet another episode. BUT.... At the same time what's going on with the Republicans is sheer malice. And it must be fought on those grounds.