7 ms·

If by "sex" you mean physical characteristics, it's not what we learn in school books but not all people have only two XX or XY chromosomes. There are other (ra

If by "sex" you mean physical characteristics, it's not what we learn in school books but not all people have only two XX or XY chromosomes. There are other (rare) combinations. XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), If we think in terms of genes, the situation is further complicated, and hormones also influence the sexual phenotype during fetal development.

Retric 2y ago
There’s also chimeras who can have some XY cells and some XX cells due to the fusion of a male and female fertilized zygotes in the early stages of prenatal development. Resulting in genetic tests of gender to result in different outcomes depending on which cells are sampled.
- pja 2y ago
  There’s a women in the medical literature (I have read the original paper, but can’t lay my hands on it right now) who had multiple children & was discovered to be a 99% XY / 1% XX chimera IIRC. (edit) This is probably the case paper I was thinking of: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ It was her ovaries that were 99/1% proportions. Other parts of her body had varying levels of mosaicism.
  - emchammer 2y ago
    Dr. House treated a patient like this on television over a decade ago.
_heimdall 2y ago
Oh for sure, I didn't mean to employ that sex is itself binary.
AlexandrB 2y ago
> XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), While this is true, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. These conditions are extremely rare - certainly much rarer than gender dysmorphia - and most transgender people are either XX or XY.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- brookst 2y ago
  I think the point is the bad-faith effort to erase trans people by asserting that chromosomes are all that matter falls down because obviously there are people running around with unusual chromosomes, so if it was an actual good faith effort they would be defining new (rare) genders to map to these chromosome patterns. But it’s not good faith, and nobody really believes that chromosomes are the most important definition of gender. It’s just a convenient way to erase trans people.
  - naasking 2y ago
    Nobody serious is claiming that chromosomes are "all that matter", but while you complain about bad-faith efforts to dismiss trans people, you seemingly ignore all of their bad faith efforts to dismiss the importance and reality of sex. > nobody really believes that chromosomes are the most important definition of gender I don't understand how you reach this conclusion given the fact that for >99% of the world's people, their gender matches their sex. Who is this "nobody" you speak of?
    - brookst 2y ago
      > Who is this “nobody” you speak of? That seemed clear? Meaning: there is a population of people who believe gender is abstracted from chromosomes by factors including psychology, and there isn’t a population who claim the believe that gender is 1:1 with chromosomes, but who handwave away the inconvenient < 1% who have a chromosome pattern not mapped to a gender. Thus, nobody actually believes this. It’s just rhetoric to support an ideological position. There are 8B people on earth; no serious scientific or political position can be built on “if you ignore millions of people who don’t fit”
      - naasking 2y ago
        > Meaning: there is a population of people who believe gender is abstracted from chromosomes by factors including psychology, and there isn’t a population who claim the believe that gender is 1:1 with chromosomes, but who handwave away the inconvenient < 1% who have a chromosome pattern not mapped to a gender. Thus, nobody actually believes this. I don't think this is true at all. I actually think the population that really believes there is some abstract distinction between gender and sex is relatively a tiny minority, mostly in Western nations. Edit: >There are 8B people on earth; no serious scientific or political position can be built on “if you ignore millions of people who don’t fit” To clarify, nobody ignores people who "don't fit". Prior to the spread of transgender awareness, feminism spent a lot of time and effort breaking down stereotypes of what it means to be one sex or the other, in order to allow anyone to express any kind of behaviour or presentation. Taking the position that you have a definite sex regardless of your behaviour or presentation is not "ignoring people who don't fit", it's just recognizing the reality of sex and letting people do what they want, while avoiding a commitment to some completely undefined, fluid notion of "gender".
naasking 2y ago
> XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome) Yes, but all of these conditions are sex-specific, so you're still only one sex or the other.
- JPLeRouzic 2y ago
  I am sorry but I am specifically speaking of cases where the phenotype contradicts the genotype. For example, there are cases where an individual has an XY karyotype but develops female traits due to a mutation in the SRY gene. The word "sex" is ambiguous, do we speak of phenotype (sexual traits/appearance) or genetic characteristics? And if you categorize people by their appearance, how do you categorize people with atypical genitalia (~1/5000)?
  - naasking 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - JPLeRouzic 2y ago
      > "Everyone has a clear sex, even those with disorders" I don't think most scientists would agree with you: https://www.nature.com/news/polopoly_fs/1.16943!/menu/main/topColumns/topLeftColumn/pdf/518288a.pdf https://www.nature.com/news/polopoly_fs/1.16943!/menu/main/t...
      - naasking 2y ago
        That's an opinion piece. Go to the Wikipedia article for "sex" and you'll see it's the very first sentence with plenty of sources.
    - CamperBob2 2y ago
      You've made a lot of strong, specific assertions here that contradict my own understanding. For example, you seem to be dismissing some troubling questions regarding sex assignment at birth based on on-the-spot judgment calls. It's probably a good idea for you to provide links to some objective sources.
goosedragons 2y ago
Yep. And there's XX people that naturally appear male and XY people that naturally appear female.

Retric 2y ago

There’s also chimeras who can have some XY cells and some XX cells due to the fusion of a male and female fertilized zygotes in the early stages of prenatal development. Resulting in genetic tests of gender to result in different outcomes depending on which cells are sampled.

pja 2y ago
There’s a women in the medical literature (I have read the original paper, but can’t lay my hands on it right now) who had multiple children & was discovered to be a 99% XY / 1% XX chimera IIRC. (edit) This is probably the case paper I was thinking of: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ It was her ovaries that were 99/1% proportions. Other parts of her body had varying levels of mosaicism.
- emchammer 2y ago
  Dr. House treated a patient like this on television over a decade ago.

_heimdall 2y ago

Oh for sure, I didn't mean to employ that sex is itself binary.

AlexandrB 2y ago

> XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), While this is true, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. These conditions are extremely rare - certainly much rarer than gender dysmorphia - and most transgender people are either XX or XY.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
brookst 2y ago
I think the point is the bad-faith effort to erase trans people by asserting that chromosomes are all that matter falls down because obviously there are people running around with unusual chromosomes, so if it was an actual good faith effort they would be defining new (rare) genders to map to these chromosome patterns. But it’s not good faith, and nobody really believes that chromosomes are the most important definition of gender. It’s just a convenient way to erase trans people.
- naasking 2y ago
  Nobody serious is claiming that chromosomes are "all that matter", but while you complain about bad-faith efforts to dismiss trans people, you seemingly ignore all of their bad faith efforts to dismiss the importance and reality of sex. > nobody really believes that chromosomes are the most important definition of gender I don't understand how you reach this conclusion given the fact that for >99% of the world's people, their gender matches their sex. Who is this "nobody" you speak of?
  - brookst 2y ago
    > Who is this “nobody” you speak of? That seemed clear? Meaning: there is a population of people who believe gender is abstracted from chromosomes by factors including psychology, and there isn’t a population who claim the believe that gender is 1:1 with chromosomes, but who handwave away the inconvenient < 1% who have a chromosome pattern not mapped to a gender. Thus, nobody actually believes this. It’s just rhetoric to support an ideological position. There are 8B people on earth; no serious scientific or political position can be built on “if you ignore millions of people who don’t fit”
    - naasking 2y ago
      > Meaning: there is a population of people who believe gender is abstracted from chromosomes by factors including psychology, and there isn’t a population who claim the believe that gender is 1:1 with chromosomes, but who handwave away the inconvenient < 1% who have a chromosome pattern not mapped to a gender. Thus, nobody actually believes this. I don't think this is true at all. I actually think the population that really believes there is some abstract distinction between gender and sex is relatively a tiny minority, mostly in Western nations. Edit: >There are 8B people on earth; no serious scientific or political position can be built on “if you ignore millions of people who don’t fit” To clarify, nobody ignores people who "don't fit". Prior to the spread of transgender awareness, feminism spent a lot of time and effort breaking down stereotypes of what it means to be one sex or the other, in order to allow anyone to express any kind of behaviour or presentation. Taking the position that you have a definite sex regardless of your behaviour or presentation is not "ignoring people who don't fit", it's just recognizing the reality of sex and letting people do what they want, while avoiding a commitment to some completely undefined, fluid notion of "gender".

naasking 2y ago

> XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome) Yes, but all of these conditions are sex-specific, so you're still only one sex or the other.

JPLeRouzic 2y ago
I am sorry but I am specifically speaking of cases where the phenotype contradicts the genotype. For example, there are cases where an individual has an XY karyotype but develops female traits due to a mutation in the SRY gene. The word "sex" is ambiguous, do we speak of phenotype (sexual traits/appearance) or genetic characteristics? And if you categorize people by their appearance, how do you categorize people with atypical genitalia (~1/5000)?
- naasking 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - JPLeRouzic 2y ago
    > "Everyone has a clear sex, even those with disorders" I don't think most scientists would agree with you: https://www.nature.com/news/polopoly_fs/1.16943!/menu/main/topColumns/topLeftColumn/pdf/518288a.pdf https://www.nature.com/news/polopoly_fs/1.16943!/menu/main/t...
    - naasking 2y ago
      That's an opinion piece. Go to the Wikipedia article for "sex" and you'll see it's the very first sentence with plenty of sources.
  - CamperBob2 2y ago
    You've made a lot of strong, specific assertions here that contradict my own understanding. For example, you seem to be dismissing some troubling questions regarding sex assignment at birth based on on-the-spot judgment calls. It's probably a good idea for you to provide links to some objective sources.

goosedragons 2y ago

Yep. And there's XX people that naturally appear male and XY people that naturally appear female.