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> but the biology of gender - including gender dysphoria - is established science Maybe my education is just getting out of date, but isn't the biological side

> but the biology of gender - including gender dysphoria - is established science Maybe my education is just getting out of date, but isn't the biological side of that topic sex while gender is generally referring to more of the social constructs like expected social roles and behaviors? I though body or gender dysmorphia would in fact be tied to gender rather than sex because it is more of a psychology question than a biological one.

IX-103 2y ago
fMRI studies have found differences in the brain that are highly correlated with gender dysmorphia. So while we may treat it as a psychological condition, it, like many other psychological conditions, also has an underlying biological basis.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Correlation still doesn't tell us too much though. In general its nearly impossible to find likely causation for psychological conditions. That doesn't mean the links aren't there, its seems likely to me that there is a biological factor, its just really hard or impossible to design proper studies for causation.
  - trescenzi 2y ago
    Sure but the point of research is to improve understanding. Today there is correlation, tomorrow we find causation. Are you suggesting we should stop looking for a physical cause of depression? Many neurologists believe that psychological conditions map onto physical structural or chemical differences. Maybe that is the case, maybe that’s not the case but we use the tools we have to do that research so that we can better understand, and if necessary treat, these conditions.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      I'd be very curious to see how causation may be found for most psychological conditions. I'm sure there are ways I haven't seen or considered, but it seems really difficult to structure a study that would lead towards potential causation. Traumatic brain injuries are one standout, though even then I think its just correlative as no one is going to attempt a study that intentionally causes TBIs in the test group.
- naasking 2y ago
  > fMRI studies have found differences in the brain that are highly correlated with gender dysmorphia No they haven't, that study was debunked. There is currently no physically detectable way to identify gender dysmorphia or trans identity, there is only self-report.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    If someone started grinding up those pill things and putting them in your salt shaker, you wouldn't be able to prove that you didn't like the results - unless we can believe self-reports.
    - naasking 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - whatshisface 2y ago
        What special privileges?
        naasking 2y ago
        Sex-segregated spaces for one. For another, is anyone obligated to call a Catholic priest "father" simply because his beliefs give him a special title? Of course not. Clearly gender is not treated this way.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      Believing swlf-report for an n of 1 question of personal preference is very different from trusting a self-report survey meant to extrapolate the results of one cohort to a larger audience.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
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JPLeRouzic 2y ago
If by "sex" you mean physical characteristics, it's not what we learn in school books but not all people have only two XX or XY chromosomes. There are other (rare) combinations. XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), If we think in terms of genes, the situation is further complicated, and hormones also influence the sexual phenotype during fetal development.
- Retric 2y ago
  There’s also chimeras who can have some XY cells and some XX cells due to the fusion of a male and female fertilized zygotes in the early stages of prenatal development. Resulting in genetic tests of gender to result in different outcomes depending on which cells are sampled.
  - pja 2y ago
    There’s a women in the medical literature (I have read the original paper, but can’t lay my hands on it right now) who had multiple children & was discovered to be a 99% XY / 1% XX chimera IIRC. (edit) This is probably the case paper I was thinking of: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ It was her ovaries that were 99/1% proportions. Other parts of her body had varying levels of mosaicism.
    - emchammer 2y ago
      Dr. House treated a patient like this on television over a decade ago.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Oh for sure, I didn't mean to employ that sex is itself binary.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  > XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), While this is true, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. These conditions are extremely rare - certainly much rarer than gender dysmorphia - and most transgender people are either XX or XY.

IX-103 2y ago

fMRI studies have found differences in the brain that are highly correlated with gender dysmorphia. So while we may treat it as a psychological condition, it, like many other psychological conditions, also has an underlying biological basis.

_heimdall 2y ago
Correlation still doesn't tell us too much though. In general its nearly impossible to find likely causation for psychological conditions. That doesn't mean the links aren't there, its seems likely to me that there is a biological factor, its just really hard or impossible to design proper studies for causation.
- trescenzi 2y ago
  Sure but the point of research is to improve understanding. Today there is correlation, tomorrow we find causation. Are you suggesting we should stop looking for a physical cause of depression? Many neurologists believe that psychological conditions map onto physical structural or chemical differences. Maybe that is the case, maybe that’s not the case but we use the tools we have to do that research so that we can better understand, and if necessary treat, these conditions.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    I'd be very curious to see how causation may be found for most psychological conditions. I'm sure there are ways I haven't seen or considered, but it seems really difficult to structure a study that would lead towards potential causation. Traumatic brain injuries are one standout, though even then I think its just correlative as no one is going to attempt a study that intentionally causes TBIs in the test group.
naasking 2y ago
> fMRI studies have found differences in the brain that are highly correlated with gender dysmorphia No they haven't, that study was debunked. There is currently no physically detectable way to identify gender dysmorphia or trans identity, there is only self-report.
- whatshisface 2y ago
  If someone started grinding up those pill things and putting them in your salt shaker, you wouldn't be able to prove that you didn't like the results - unless we can believe self-reports.
  - naasking 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      What special privileges?
      - naasking 2y ago
        Sex-segregated spaces for one. For another, is anyone obligated to call a Catholic priest "father" simply because his beliefs give him a special title? Of course not. Clearly gender is not treated this way.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Believing swlf-report for an n of 1 question of personal preference is very different from trusting a self-report survey meant to extrapolate the results of one cohort to a larger audience.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

JPLeRouzic 2y ago

If by "sex" you mean physical characteristics, it's not what we learn in school books but not all people have only two XX or XY chromosomes. There are other (rare) combinations. XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), If we think in terms of genes, the situation is further complicated, and hormones also influence the sexual phenotype during fetal development.

Retric 2y ago
There’s also chimeras who can have some XY cells and some XX cells due to the fusion of a male and female fertilized zygotes in the early stages of prenatal development. Resulting in genetic tests of gender to result in different outcomes depending on which cells are sampled.
- pja 2y ago
  There’s a women in the medical literature (I have read the original paper, but can’t lay my hands on it right now) who had multiple children & was discovered to be a 99% XY / 1% XX chimera IIRC. (edit) This is probably the case paper I was thinking of: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ It was her ovaries that were 99/1% proportions. Other parts of her body had varying levels of mosaicism.
  - emchammer 2y ago
    Dr. House treated a patient like this on television over a decade ago.
_heimdall 2y ago
Oh for sure, I didn't mean to employ that sex is itself binary.
AlexandrB 2y ago
> XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), While this is true, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. These conditions are extremely rare - certainly much rarer than gender dysmorphia - and most transgender people are either XX or XY.