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This is true, but the biology of gender - including gender dysphoria - is established science. There is no ambiguity about it. It's only "offensive" to people

This is true, but the biology of gender - including gender dysphoria - is established science. There is no ambiguity about it. It's only "offensive" to people who don't like how reality works. Which is clearly the real problem here. Pretending otherwise is gaslighting, because they're doing the same thing to climate change research and pandemic research. And there's a good chance vaccines and other public health measures will be next. This is not a rational government for rational people planning a rational future. This is a government of angry anti-rational cranks with mental health issues working out those issues in public, to the detriment of everyone except a small cadre of multi-billionaires who share the same psychology, but whose wealth will (somewhat) protect them from consequences the rest of us will have to live with.

_heimdall 2y ago
> but the biology of gender - including gender dysphoria - is established science Maybe my education is just getting out of date, but isn't the biological side of that topic sex while gender is generally referring to more of the social constructs like expected social roles and behaviors? I though body or gender dysmorphia would in fact be tied to gender rather than sex because it is more of a psychology question than a biological one.
- IX-103 2y ago
  fMRI studies have found differences in the brain that are highly correlated with gender dysmorphia. So while we may treat it as a psychological condition, it, like many other psychological conditions, also has an underlying biological basis.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Correlation still doesn't tell us too much though. In general its nearly impossible to find likely causation for psychological conditions. That doesn't mean the links aren't there, its seems likely to me that there is a biological factor, its just really hard or impossible to design proper studies for causation.
    - trescenzi 2y ago
      Sure but the point of research is to improve understanding. Today there is correlation, tomorrow we find causation. Are you suggesting we should stop looking for a physical cause of depression? Many neurologists believe that psychological conditions map onto physical structural or chemical differences. Maybe that is the case, maybe that’s not the case but we use the tools we have to do that research so that we can better understand, and if necessary treat, these conditions.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        I'd be very curious to see how causation may be found for most psychological conditions. I'm sure there are ways I haven't seen or considered, but it seems really difficult to structure a study that would lead towards potential causation. Traumatic brain injuries are one standout, though even then I think its just correlative as no one is going to attempt a study that intentionally causes TBIs in the test group.
  - naasking 2y ago
    > fMRI studies have found differences in the brain that are highly correlated with gender dysmorphia No they haven't, that study was debunked. There is currently no physically detectable way to identify gender dysmorphia or trans identity, there is only self-report.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      If someone started grinding up those pill things and putting them in your salt shaker, you wouldn't be able to prove that you didn't like the results - unless we can believe self-reports.
      - naasking 2y ago
        [flagged]
        whatshisface 2y ago
        What special privileges?
        naasking 2y ago
        Sex-segregated spaces for one. For another, is anyone obligated to call a Catholic priest "father" simply because his beliefs give him a special title? Of course not. Clearly gender is not treated this way.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        Believing swlf-report for an n of 1 question of personal preference is very different from trusting a self-report survey meant to extrapolate the results of one cohort to a larger audience.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- JPLeRouzic 2y ago
  If by "sex" you mean physical characteristics, it's not what we learn in school books but not all people have only two XX or XY chromosomes. There are other (rare) combinations. XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), If we think in terms of genes, the situation is further complicated, and hormones also influence the sexual phenotype during fetal development.
  - Retric 2y ago
    There’s also chimeras who can have some XY cells and some XX cells due to the fusion of a male and female fertilized zygotes in the early stages of prenatal development. Resulting in genetic tests of gender to result in different outcomes depending on which cells are sampled.
    - pja 2y ago
      There’s a women in the medical literature (I have read the original paper, but can’t lay my hands on it right now) who had multiple children & was discovered to be a 99% XY / 1% XX chimera IIRC. (edit) This is probably the case paper I was thinking of: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ It was her ovaries that were 99/1% proportions. Other parts of her body had varying levels of mosaicism.
      - emchammer 2y ago
        Dr. House treated a patient like this on television over a decade ago.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Oh for sure, I didn't mean to employ that sex is itself binary.
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    > XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), While this is true, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. These conditions are extremely rare - certainly much rarer than gender dysmorphia - and most transgender people are either XX or XY.
afpx 2y ago
Calling it “established science” seems like an attempt to shut down scientific discourse and normalize gender dysphoria even though it is a complex topic that causes distress to many people and has ongoing ethical concerns. It becomes even more complex when considering the decades of funding of gender studies which has attempted to normalize and promote it rather than research solutions. Further complicating the issue are financial incentives that encourage treatments. And, there are social and legal incentives that encourage expanding the number of people with that diagnosis. For example, there currently seems to be a push to immediately affirm adolescents with histories of mental health conditions when a more cautious approach may be more helpful. Edit: Anecdotally, I have a transgender nephew, and three of my good friends have transgender children. Both of my best friend's two children are transgender. My friend went through a bitter divorce a few years ago and was estranged from his 17 year old son for over a year. When he next saw him, his son had already started irreversable treatment even though he hadn’t had any symptoms a year prior. To me, someone who experimented with what they call 'gender fluidity' as a teenager in the 90s, this all seems unusual and should be handled more cautiously.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  One aspect that I find alarming about gender dysmorphia as a diagnosis is that it seems to pathologize gender non-conformity. For example, in some circles it's more acceptable to be a trans man than a "butch" woman. And the diagnostic criteria for gender dysmorphia might put a butch woman in the "trans" bucket if she were to talk to a doctor. To me this is a betrayal of what feminism was after in the early 2000 - namely moving away from rigid gender stereotypes.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - jagger27 2y ago
    You mean gender dysphoria. Body dysmorphia is also something trans people experience. You’re basically making the “they’re killing the twinks!” argument with absolutely no evidence for diagnosticians leading patients towards transition. My experience as a trans woman is that I had to fight my doctors to believe me, and this is a common experience in my circles. I know dozens of trans people, and not a single one was told by a doctor that they were trans. We call it the prime directive, and we even apply it between friends. You do not speak with authority on this topic.
naasking 2y ago
> This is true, but the biology of gender - including gender dysphoria - is established science. There is no ambiguity about it. There is no biology of gender, biology is concerned only with sex. If you'd ever seen a mention of "gender" in biology prior to 10 years ago, it was a reference to sex because at the time they were not distinct. So if you meant "sex" in your sentence then I agree with you, it is settled science, but if you really did mean to say "gender" then I have no idea what you're talking about because "gender" has no definition in biology.
- SubiculumCode 2y ago
  Gender does have biological causes.
  - naasking 2y ago
    Define gender first and we'll see.
    - SubiculumCode 2y ago
      Gender diversity encompasses the range of differences between an individual's internal, subjective experience of their gender identity and the sex assigned to them at birth. In gender diverse individuals, shifts in neurobiology are frequently observed, shifts that are frequently towards patterns typical of the other binary assigned sex.
      - SubiculumCode 2y ago
        and towards that of their gender identity.
      - naasking 2y ago
        > Gender diversity encompasses the range of differences between an individual's internal, subjective experience of their gender identity and the sex assigned to them at birth. That's a) not a biological definition, and b) circular because now you still need to define "gender identity". > In gender diverse individuals, shifts in neurobiology are frequently observed, shifts that are frequently towards patterns typical of the other binary assigned sex. No, this is a misconception based on flawed fMRI studies that did not control for sexual orientation, did not control for HRT, and did not control for body perceptual disorders. There is no known physical test that can assign or distinguish gender as there is for sex.
dang 2y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42907007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42907007.

_heimdall 2y ago

> but the biology of gender - including gender dysphoria - is established science Maybe my education is just getting out of date, but isn't the biological side of that topic sex while gender is generally referring to more of the social constructs like expected social roles and behaviors? I though body or gender dysmorphia would in fact be tied to gender rather than sex because it is more of a psychology question than a biological one.

IX-103 2y ago
fMRI studies have found differences in the brain that are highly correlated with gender dysmorphia. So while we may treat it as a psychological condition, it, like many other psychological conditions, also has an underlying biological basis.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Correlation still doesn't tell us too much though. In general its nearly impossible to find likely causation for psychological conditions. That doesn't mean the links aren't there, its seems likely to me that there is a biological factor, its just really hard or impossible to design proper studies for causation.
  - trescenzi 2y ago
    Sure but the point of research is to improve understanding. Today there is correlation, tomorrow we find causation. Are you suggesting we should stop looking for a physical cause of depression? Many neurologists believe that psychological conditions map onto physical structural or chemical differences. Maybe that is the case, maybe that’s not the case but we use the tools we have to do that research so that we can better understand, and if necessary treat, these conditions.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      I'd be very curious to see how causation may be found for most psychological conditions. I'm sure there are ways I haven't seen or considered, but it seems really difficult to structure a study that would lead towards potential causation. Traumatic brain injuries are one standout, though even then I think its just correlative as no one is going to attempt a study that intentionally causes TBIs in the test group.
- naasking 2y ago
  > fMRI studies have found differences in the brain that are highly correlated with gender dysmorphia No they haven't, that study was debunked. There is currently no physically detectable way to identify gender dysmorphia or trans identity, there is only self-report.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    If someone started grinding up those pill things and putting them in your salt shaker, you wouldn't be able to prove that you didn't like the results - unless we can believe self-reports.
    - naasking 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - whatshisface 2y ago
        What special privileges?
        naasking 2y ago
        Sex-segregated spaces for one. For another, is anyone obligated to call a Catholic priest "father" simply because his beliefs give him a special title? Of course not. Clearly gender is not treated this way.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      Believing swlf-report for an n of 1 question of personal preference is very different from trusting a self-report survey meant to extrapolate the results of one cohort to a larger audience.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
JPLeRouzic 2y ago
If by "sex" you mean physical characteristics, it's not what we learn in school books but not all people have only two XX or XY chromosomes. There are other (rare) combinations. XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), If we think in terms of genes, the situation is further complicated, and hormones also influence the sexual phenotype during fetal development.
- Retric 2y ago
  There’s also chimeras who can have some XY cells and some XX cells due to the fusion of a male and female fertilized zygotes in the early stages of prenatal development. Resulting in genetic tests of gender to result in different outcomes depending on which cells are sampled.
  - pja 2y ago
    There’s a women in the medical literature (I have read the original paper, but can’t lay my hands on it right now) who had multiple children & was discovered to be a 99% XY / 1% XX chimera IIRC. (edit) This is probably the case paper I was thinking of: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/ It was her ovaries that were 99/1% proportions. Other parts of her body had varying levels of mosaicism.
    - emchammer 2y ago
      Dr. House treated a patient like this on television over a decade ago.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Oh for sure, I didn't mean to employ that sex is itself binary.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  > XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), X (Turner syndrome), XXX (Triple X syndrome), XYY (Jacob’s syndrome), While this is true, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. These conditions are extremely rare - certainly much rarer than gender dysmorphia - and most transgender people are either XX or XY.

afpx 2y ago

Calling it “established science” seems like an attempt to shut down scientific discourse and normalize gender dysphoria even though it is a complex topic that causes distress to many people and has ongoing ethical concerns. It becomes even more complex when considering the decades of funding of gender studies which has attempted to normalize and promote it rather than research solutions. Further complicating the issue are financial incentives that encourage treatments. And, there are social and legal incentives that encourage expanding the number of people with that diagnosis. For example, there currently seems to be a push to immediately affirm adolescents with histories of mental health conditions when a more cautious approach may be more helpful. Edit: Anecdotally, I have a transgender nephew, and three of my good friends have transgender children. Both of my best friend's two children are transgender. My friend went through a bitter divorce a few years ago and was estranged from his 17 year old son for over a year. When he next saw him, his son had already started irreversable treatment even though he hadn’t had any symptoms a year prior. To me, someone who experimented with what they call 'gender fluidity' as a teenager in the 90s, this all seems unusual and should be handled more cautiously.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
AlexandrB 2y ago
One aspect that I find alarming about gender dysmorphia as a diagnosis is that it seems to pathologize gender non-conformity. For example, in some circles it's more acceptable to be a trans man than a "butch" woman. And the diagnostic criteria for gender dysmorphia might put a butch woman in the "trans" bucket if she were to talk to a doctor. To me this is a betrayal of what feminism was after in the early 2000 - namely moving away from rigid gender stereotypes.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jagger27 2y ago
  You mean gender dysphoria. Body dysmorphia is also something trans people experience. You’re basically making the “they’re killing the twinks!” argument with absolutely no evidence for diagnosticians leading patients towards transition. My experience as a trans woman is that I had to fight my doctors to believe me, and this is a common experience in my circles. I know dozens of trans people, and not a single one was told by a doctor that they were trans. We call it the prime directive, and we even apply it between friends. You do not speak with authority on this topic.

naasking 2y ago

> This is true, but the biology of gender - including gender dysphoria - is established science. There is no ambiguity about it. There is no biology of gender, biology is concerned only with sex. If you'd ever seen a mention of "gender" in biology prior to 10 years ago, it was a reference to sex because at the time they were not distinct. So if you meant "sex" in your sentence then I agree with you, it is settled science, but if you really did mean to say "gender" then I have no idea what you're talking about because "gender" has no definition in biology.

SubiculumCode 2y ago
Gender does have biological causes.
- naasking 2y ago
  Define gender first and we'll see.
  - SubiculumCode 2y ago
    Gender diversity encompasses the range of differences between an individual's internal, subjective experience of their gender identity and the sex assigned to them at birth. In gender diverse individuals, shifts in neurobiology are frequently observed, shifts that are frequently towards patterns typical of the other binary assigned sex.
    - SubiculumCode 2y ago
      and towards that of their gender identity.
    - naasking 2y ago
      > Gender diversity encompasses the range of differences between an individual's internal, subjective experience of their gender identity and the sex assigned to them at birth. That's a) not a biological definition, and b) circular because now you still need to define "gender identity". > In gender diverse individuals, shifts in neurobiology are frequently observed, shifts that are frequently towards patterns typical of the other binary assigned sex. No, this is a misconception based on flawed fMRI studies that did not control for sexual orientation, did not control for HRT, and did not control for body perceptual disorders. There is no known physical test that can assign or distinguish gender as there is for sex.

dang 2y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42907007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42907007.