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Does anyone have anything new to say on these topics? We're going around and around in circles. Is there a substantial discussion? Do we learn anything new?

zfg 2y ago
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- palmfacehn 2y ago
  Cutting the size and scope of government programs and regulations has more in common with the founding principles of individualist liberalism than collectivist authoritarian ideologies like National Socialism. I would wager that, "Everyone who disagrees with me is a fascist" isn't something new to this site or online discussions generally. To the contrary it is a tired trope. It does not inform us or stimulate a new discussion. Therefore, before making such comparisons, the accusers should have substantial evidence. The burden of proof should be much higher than your article's, "Appears to make gesture".
  - zfg 2y ago
    > It does not inform us or stimulate a new discussion. But someone connected to the American government flipping two fascist salutes at the inauguration of the new president sure does.
  - CRConrad 2y ago
    > "Appears to make gesture" "Appears"??? It's on fucking videotape! Are you saying his arm was actually down by his side all the time, and it just "appears" as if he's raising it? (Perspective? Refraction? Water will find its level?) And "gesture"??? Pray tell, what fucking "gesture" is that he "appears" to be making, and why are you resorting to "gesture" in stead of acknowledging what exactly it is we're talking about? As someone said in a nearby sub-thread, ~[1]"many of his weird sycophants seem to be on HN"... ___ [1]: Quoted from memory, so probably not exact.
    - palmfacehn 2y ago
      Yes, the Guardian article linked above used the phrase, "appears to". Apparently they were not comfortable being more explicit than that. You may find the article helps to understand the context of the discussion of the article. They also went on to cite the ADL to define the gesture. However, the ADL was explicit in their interpretation: >It seems that @elonmusk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute, but again, we appreciate that people are on edge. >In this moment, all sides should give one another a bit of grace, perhaps even the benefit of the doubt, and take a breath. This is a new beginning. Let’s hope for healing and work toward unity in the months and years ahead. I dislike Elon for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion. Certainly not a "sycophant". There's a fair amount of reducto-ad-hiterlum going around HN right now. I hope more reasonable rhetoric can prevail.
      - zfg 2y ago
        And then the ADL had to face up to the reality of who Musk is the next day: https://www.axios.com/2025/01/23/elon-musk-nazi-joke-adl https://www.axios.com/2025/01/23/elon-musk-nazi-joke-adl And Musk has form. He likes to dabble in antisemitism: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/16/elon-musk-antisemitic-tweet-adl https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/16/elon-musk... Trying to excuse his fascist salutes as anything less than fascist salutes is not useful. See things as they are.
      - CRConrad 2y ago
        [flagged]

zfg 2y ago

[flagged]

palmfacehn 2y ago
Cutting the size and scope of government programs and regulations has more in common with the founding principles of individualist liberalism than collectivist authoritarian ideologies like National Socialism. I would wager that, "Everyone who disagrees with me is a fascist" isn't something new to this site or online discussions generally. To the contrary it is a tired trope. It does not inform us or stimulate a new discussion. Therefore, before making such comparisons, the accusers should have substantial evidence. The burden of proof should be much higher than your article's, "Appears to make gesture".
- zfg 2y ago
  > It does not inform us or stimulate a new discussion. But someone connected to the American government flipping two fascist salutes at the inauguration of the new president sure does.
- CRConrad 2y ago
  > "Appears to make gesture" "Appears"??? It's on fucking videotape! Are you saying his arm was actually down by his side all the time, and it just "appears" as if he's raising it? (Perspective? Refraction? Water will find its level?) And "gesture"??? Pray tell, what fucking "gesture" is that he "appears" to be making, and why are you resorting to "gesture" in stead of acknowledging what exactly it is we're talking about? As someone said in a nearby sub-thread, ~[1]"many of his weird sycophants seem to be on HN"... ___ [1]: Quoted from memory, so probably not exact.
  - palmfacehn 2y ago
    Yes, the Guardian article linked above used the phrase, "appears to". Apparently they were not comfortable being more explicit than that. You may find the article helps to understand the context of the discussion of the article. They also went on to cite the ADL to define the gesture. However, the ADL was explicit in their interpretation: >It seems that @elonmusk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute, but again, we appreciate that people are on edge. >In this moment, all sides should give one another a bit of grace, perhaps even the benefit of the doubt, and take a breath. This is a new beginning. Let’s hope for healing and work toward unity in the months and years ahead. I dislike Elon for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion. Certainly not a "sycophant". There's a fair amount of reducto-ad-hiterlum going around HN right now. I hope more reasonable rhetoric can prevail.
    - zfg 2y ago
      And then the ADL had to face up to the reality of who Musk is the next day: https://www.axios.com/2025/01/23/elon-musk-nazi-joke-adl https://www.axios.com/2025/01/23/elon-musk-nazi-joke-adl And Musk has form. He likes to dabble in antisemitism: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/16/elon-musk-antisemitic-tweet-adl https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/16/elon-musk... Trying to excuse his fascist salutes as anything less than fascist salutes is not useful. See things as they are.
    - CRConrad 2y ago
      [flagged]