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I honestly don't understand why this is not the case already. Actually copyright should be even less-enforceable. Information/access to data/works should be to

I honestly don't understand why this is not the case already. Actually copyright should be even less-enforceable. Information/access to data/works should be totally free and there should be other ways to support the creators. For example I could easily download MP3s of music and MP4s of series/movies but I don't: simply because of two reasons: - I want to support the artist (to an extent as possible) - Using Spotify/Apple Music/Netflix is much more convenient with a totally acceptable monthly fee. I know the article is not about entertainment but a library, same rules should apply. And if one wants to train an LLM, let them: at its essence it's just a person who has read all the books (and access to information should be free), just the person is a machine instead of a biological human being.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jprete 2y ago
None of those services could exist today if copyright didn't exist, because streaming services wouldn't be able to compete with free downloads. I think Patreon and Kickstarter are how creative work is funded in that world.
- Kim_Bruning 2y ago
  Piracy isn’t a legal problem—it’s a service problem [1]. Netflix, Spotify, and Valve (Steam) didn’t succeed because of copyright enforcement. They won because they made paying for content easier, faster, and better than piracy. Piracy isn’t hard, but these services solved the friction: instant access, high quality, fair pricing, and features that free alternatives couldn’t match. That’s why they still thrive today. [1] https://www.escapistmagazine.com/valves-gabe-newell-says-piracy-is-a-service-problem/ https://www.escapistmagazine.com/valves-gabe-newell-says-pir...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > They won because they made paying for content easier, faster, and better than piracy PopcornTime would eat their lunch if it were allowed to work [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popcorn_Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popcorn_Time
    - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
      Popcorn Time definitely set out to solve the service problem in a big way.
  - jprete 2y ago
    If it were legal to download movies and music, Netflix and Spotify would absolutely not exist. Steam is an unusual case, because games are running software and can't be trivially reproduced in their unencoded form. The publishers can include copy protection, network connection requirements, or even run essential parts of game logic on their own servers. So free downloads became a much worse experience over time.
    - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
      > If it were legal to download movies and music, Netflix and Spotify would absolutely not exist. I question this statement. First two hits: * https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/welter_brennan_s_201212_ma.pdf https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/welter_brennan_s_201212_ma.pd... Adding a movie to Netflix reduces piracy directly * https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/jeborg/v209y2023icp334-347.html https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/jeborg/v209y2023icp334-347.htm... Removing movies from Netflix increases piracy. There's plenty more where that came from. Netflix actually reduces piracy. Not the other way around.
      - jprete 2y ago
        I was talking about a world where piracy is legal, which this one is not.
        Kim_Bruning 2y ago
        Netflix might accidentally be the worst possible example you could pick for 'wouldn't exist if piracy were legal.' Netflix built their entire streaming business model during a time when piracy was so widespread it was almost as good as legal. They succeeded precisely by proving that people would pay for good service even when free options were readily available. They're a textbook example of a business that thrives by being better than free! Despite huge investments in enforcement, movie piracy never waned. The reason it declined? Netflix. Why is it now seeing a bit of a resurgence? Also Netflix, actually, or rather the fact that people have splintered the streaming landscape. Here's some articles from Forbes at the time. [1] [2] [3] and an interview with the Netflix CEO [4] People following the Netflix/piracy story at the time saw it like this: Netflix doesn't necessarily need to care if piracy is legal or not, because it removes most of the incentive to pirate. People tried a lot of things against piracy, until Netflix came along and that was the thing that actually worked. Piracy goes down where Netflix is available. I've also provided enough sources to explain why: Piracy is a service problem [3]. Netflix provides the missing service, so people don't feel like they need to pirate anymore. In a world where piracy was fully legal, Netflix would still exist, and still drive down piracy. This is Netflix's entire reason for success! [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthickey/2013/05/07/netflix-we-kill-piracy-bittorrent-yeah-so-about-that-piracy-thing/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthickey/2013/05/07/netflix-w... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/01/24/whatever-happened-to-the-war-on-piracy/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/01/24/whatever-... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/02/03/you-will-never-kill-piracy-and-piracy-will-never-kill-you/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/02/03/you-will-... [4] https://www.stuff.tv/news/netflixs-ted-sarandos-talks-arrested-development-4k-and-reviving-old-shows/ https://www.stuff.tv/news/netflixs-ted-sarandos-talks-arrest... (under the heading "what are you doing to combat piracy?" )
  - thatcat 2y ago
    Alternative take: those services have a smaller selection, use annoying algorithms to promote IP they own, and are generally worse that piracy, but people don't like being hassled by their ISP and initially they cost a similar amount to a VPN.
    - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
      Good old enshittification[1], because all good things must come to an end, sadly. I expect piracy figures are/will be going back up because of it. Do you think these diverse streaming services would admit to what they're doing, or will they try to double down on enforcement again? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification
martin-t 2y ago
> And if one wants to train an LLM, let them: at its essence it's just a person If I gzip a couple hundred thousand books and distribute them freely, can I also claim it's just a person who has read those books and avoid a massive lawsuit? Please, stop anthropomorphising machine learning models.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> copyright should be even less-enforceable It should also be de-criminalized.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

jprete 2y ago

None of those services could exist today if copyright didn't exist, because streaming services wouldn't be able to compete with free downloads. I think Patreon and Kickstarter are how creative work is funded in that world.

Kim_Bruning 2y ago
Piracy isn’t a legal problem—it’s a service problem [1]. Netflix, Spotify, and Valve (Steam) didn’t succeed because of copyright enforcement. They won because they made paying for content easier, faster, and better than piracy. Piracy isn’t hard, but these services solved the friction: instant access, high quality, fair pricing, and features that free alternatives couldn’t match. That’s why they still thrive today. [1] https://www.escapistmagazine.com/valves-gabe-newell-says-piracy-is-a-service-problem/ https://www.escapistmagazine.com/valves-gabe-newell-says-pir...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > They won because they made paying for content easier, faster, and better than piracy PopcornTime would eat their lunch if it were allowed to work [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popcorn_Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popcorn_Time
  - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
    Popcorn Time definitely set out to solve the service problem in a big way.
- jprete 2y ago
  If it were legal to download movies and music, Netflix and Spotify would absolutely not exist. Steam is an unusual case, because games are running software and can't be trivially reproduced in their unencoded form. The publishers can include copy protection, network connection requirements, or even run essential parts of game logic on their own servers. So free downloads became a much worse experience over time.
  - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
    > If it were legal to download movies and music, Netflix and Spotify would absolutely not exist. I question this statement. First two hits: * https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/welter_brennan_s_201212_ma.pdf https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/welter_brennan_s_201212_ma.pd... Adding a movie to Netflix reduces piracy directly * https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/jeborg/v209y2023icp334-347.html https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/jeborg/v209y2023icp334-347.htm... Removing movies from Netflix increases piracy. There's plenty more where that came from. Netflix actually reduces piracy. Not the other way around.
    - jprete 2y ago
      I was talking about a world where piracy is legal, which this one is not.
      - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
        Netflix might accidentally be the worst possible example you could pick for 'wouldn't exist if piracy were legal.' Netflix built their entire streaming business model during a time when piracy was so widespread it was almost as good as legal. They succeeded precisely by proving that people would pay for good service even when free options were readily available. They're a textbook example of a business that thrives by being better than free! Despite huge investments in enforcement, movie piracy never waned. The reason it declined? Netflix. Why is it now seeing a bit of a resurgence? Also Netflix, actually, or rather the fact that people have splintered the streaming landscape. Here's some articles from Forbes at the time. [1] [2] [3] and an interview with the Netflix CEO [4] People following the Netflix/piracy story at the time saw it like this: Netflix doesn't necessarily need to care if piracy is legal or not, because it removes most of the incentive to pirate. People tried a lot of things against piracy, until Netflix came along and that was the thing that actually worked. Piracy goes down where Netflix is available. I've also provided enough sources to explain why: Piracy is a service problem [3]. Netflix provides the missing service, so people don't feel like they need to pirate anymore. In a world where piracy was fully legal, Netflix would still exist, and still drive down piracy. This is Netflix's entire reason for success! [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthickey/2013/05/07/netflix-we-kill-piracy-bittorrent-yeah-so-about-that-piracy-thing/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthickey/2013/05/07/netflix-w... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/01/24/whatever-happened-to-the-war-on-piracy/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/01/24/whatever-... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/02/03/you-will-never-kill-piracy-and-piracy-will-never-kill-you/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/02/03/you-will-... [4] https://www.stuff.tv/news/netflixs-ted-sarandos-talks-arrested-development-4k-and-reviving-old-shows/ https://www.stuff.tv/news/netflixs-ted-sarandos-talks-arrest... (under the heading "what are you doing to combat piracy?" )
- thatcat 2y ago
  Alternative take: those services have a smaller selection, use annoying algorithms to promote IP they own, and are generally worse that piracy, but people don't like being hassled by their ISP and initially they cost a similar amount to a VPN.
  - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
    Good old enshittification[1], because all good things must come to an end, sadly. I expect piracy figures are/will be going back up because of it. Do you think these diverse streaming services would admit to what they're doing, or will they try to double down on enforcement again? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification

martin-t 2y ago

> And if one wants to train an LLM, let them: at its essence it's just a person If I gzip a couple hundred thousand books and distribute them freely, can I also claim it's just a person who has read those books and avoid a massive lawsuit? Please, stop anthropomorphising machine learning models.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> copyright should be even less-enforceable It should also be de-criminalized.