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Fiction was utterly destroyed for me in high school where it was rammed down my throat, and when I was examined on finding deep meanings where the author may no

Fiction was utterly destroyed for me in high school where it was rammed down my throat, and when I was examined on finding deep meanings where the author may not have even intended or wanted. Biblical stories would be my pick if I had to move toward fiction, if you can even call it that.

EvilTerran 14y ago
Fiction was utterly destroyed for me ... when I was examined on finding deep meanings where the author may not have even intended or wanted Post-structuralism[1] has its place, and I'm a big fan of it now, but I also hated having it pushed on me in high-school literature lessons -- that seems to be a very common experience, and one that really can damage people's enjoyment of fiction thereafter. I'm not sure whether the problem's one of presentation ("find the meaning! it can be anything you like!"; "er, say wot, miss?"), or whether the average teenager just doesn't have the right intellectual frame to really appreciate the idea "meaning is a product of the interaction between text and reader, not a product of the text alone". Back in high-school, I overcame my frustration at the perceived arbitrariness by approaching the task ironically -- "sod it, I'm gonna pick the most outlandish reading I can think of". The teachers seemed to think the results were great, which I found pretty amusing. [1] I refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism#Destabilized_meaning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism#Destabilized... in particular.
- adrianwaj 14y ago
  Interesting. I suppose English teachers like total textbook responses to texts (things they tell their students to say) or totally outlandish stuff to shake them from monotony. I remember creating essays that were great (at least to me) but not scoring particularly well, I also used to think if the author of a text would be marked on response to that text, they'd fair pretty poorly too. It really is a long time ago. I read things my old English teachers write now in school magazines and they are hardly impressive.
arethuza 14y ago
"Biblical stories would be my pick if I had to move toward fiction" That's an interesting choice - why would you choose those? Historicity? Impact on Western culture?
- adrianwaj 14y ago
  Truly inspired text should inspire the reader to obtain insights they'd have trouble reaching on their own. And yes, getting in touch with archetypes can actually be healing to the psyche.
  - arethuza 14y ago
    After reading any parts of the Bible I tend to feel as inspired as Randolph Churchill who, as described by Evelyn Waugh: "In the hope of keeping him quiet for a few hours Freddy & I have bet Randolph 20[pounds sterling] that he cannot read the whole Bible in a fortnight. It would have been worth it at the price. Unhappily it has not had the result we hoped. He has never read any of it before and is hideously excited; keeps reading quotations aloud `I say I bet you didn't know this came in the Bible "bring down my grey hairs in sorrow to the grave'" or merely slapping his side & chortling `God, isn't God a shit!' " http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mosley-letters.html http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mosley-letters.html
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - davidtanner 14y ago
    Indeed, the Bible is both a narrative and an extended esoteric religious metaphor. Someone looking for insights, healing, gnosis and awareness of archetypes would do well to seek out more modern literature by Carl Jung, Stanislav Grof and Huston Smith.
    - adrianwaj 14y ago
      Very good suggestions, and I've touched on them all. Ken Wilber mentioned that the best thing a person can do to promote enlightenment is to simply share their beingness, not try to push any agenda. I tend to agree. I find Alex Jones' QA sessions to be very interesting. But none of this is fiction. add: AJ says he uses Linux personally and wants to get more deeply into it. He and Stallman agree open-source is the way to go because it's open, and any spyware or backdoors can be discovered. Keep Big Brother out. If AJ is out there getting Linux and Bitcoin (to a lesser extent) into people's minds, then that is a good thing in and of itself, I think.
cturner 14y ago
I'm struggling to take what you've said at face value - that the high school situation you've described has destroyed fiction for you. Are you now unable to read without searching for strained deeper meanings for things? Does this also affect television and movies, reading out picture books to children? Could it be that you've bought into your own fictional narrative? If so, then what you've said is true (the high school thing did destroy fiction for you, indirectly). But you have the tools within you to deal with that.
- adrianwaj 14y ago
  Being forced to churn through books I didn't enjoy destroyed fiction for me. Also, being forced to analyze things in certain ways also injected displeasure into the experience. I have trouble with fiction now either because I don't find it interesting, I don't need it, I don't trust fiction to inspire me or I don't trust myself to be inspired by it. I'm not sure, I'm not proud of it, but then again I'm not ashamed of it either. People that enjoy fiction have a charm about them, but I have enough of that anyway! add: I don't watch TV, nor watch films generally unless there's something very special about them. I dream a lot, so that's my entertainment. The real healing component from dreams comes when remembering them part way through the day.. that unlocks their subconscious energy for conscious use.
  - R_Edward 14y ago
    High school and college literature classes dealt a serious setback to my readership too. Most (not all) of the books I had to read were worth reading, but like a fine beverage, many should be sipped and savored, not gulped and dismissed. What teachers seem to forget is that a student has a great many things on his plate, and can find it difficult indeed to set aside enough time to give a really good book its due. Then they give you an assignment like, identify ten symbols in the work, and explain what you think they symbolize. Remember, there's no single right answer--symbolism and abstract meaning is a result of the interaction between the reader and the text. When I hear someone say "there's no single right answer," I hear, "...but there are an awful lot of wrong answers, and chances are, yours is one of 'em." What I can say, though, is that once you get out of academia, give your mind a little time to refresh itself, and no longer feel the threat to your GPA if you interpret a book incorrectly, the enjoyment returns to reading. In some cases, you'll even go back to those books you had forced down your throat, re-read them, and enjoy them this time round! But not "The Things They Carried." I don't mind being surprised in a story, but I get annoyed when the style clearly suggests one thing, and then in a pique of self-referentiality, the author tugs the rug out from under you and tells you that... well, I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't had the misfortune yet. (No, it's really a pretty good book, and I have to admit the author got me good.)
chernevik 14y ago
Here's a suggestion. Read the story of David, all the way through, continuing into the early years of his son Solomon's reign. Pay special attention to Absalom's rebellion and the aftermath. Then read "The Godfather" by Mario Puzo. Compare and contrast Solomon with Michael Corleone. The Godfather movies are also outstanding, maybe better than the books. But they don't resonate the Bible story's theme of generational revenge quite so clearly.

EvilTerran 14y ago

Fiction was utterly destroyed for me ... when I was examined on finding deep meanings where the author may not have even intended or wanted Post-structuralism[1] has its place, and I'm a big fan of it now, but I also hated having it pushed on me in high-school literature lessons -- that seems to be a very common experience, and one that really can damage people's enjoyment of fiction thereafter. I'm not sure whether the problem's one of presentation ("find the meaning! it can be anything you like!"; "er, say wot, miss?"), or whether the average teenager just doesn't have the right intellectual frame to really appreciate the idea "meaning is a product of the interaction between text and reader, not a product of the text alone". Back in high-school, I overcame my frustration at the perceived arbitrariness by approaching the task ironically -- "sod it, I'm gonna pick the most outlandish reading I can think of". The teachers seemed to think the results were great, which I found pretty amusing. [1] I refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism#Destabilized_meaning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism#Destabilized... in particular.

adrianwaj 14y ago
Interesting. I suppose English teachers like total textbook responses to texts (things they tell their students to say) or totally outlandish stuff to shake them from monotony. I remember creating essays that were great (at least to me) but not scoring particularly well, I also used to think if the author of a text would be marked on response to that text, they'd fair pretty poorly too. It really is a long time ago. I read things my old English teachers write now in school magazines and they are hardly impressive.

arethuza 14y ago

"Biblical stories would be my pick if I had to move toward fiction" That's an interesting choice - why would you choose those? Historicity? Impact on Western culture?

adrianwaj 14y ago
Truly inspired text should inspire the reader to obtain insights they'd have trouble reaching on their own. And yes, getting in touch with archetypes can actually be healing to the psyche.
- arethuza 14y ago
  After reading any parts of the Bible I tend to feel as inspired as Randolph Churchill who, as described by Evelyn Waugh: "In the hope of keeping him quiet for a few hours Freddy & I have bet Randolph 20[pounds sterling] that he cannot read the whole Bible in a fortnight. It would have been worth it at the price. Unhappily it has not had the result we hoped. He has never read any of it before and is hideously excited; keeps reading quotations aloud `I say I bet you didn't know this came in the Bible "bring down my grey hairs in sorrow to the grave'" or merely slapping his side & chortling `God, isn't God a shit!' " http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mosley-letters.html http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mosley-letters.html
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- davidtanner 14y ago
  Indeed, the Bible is both a narrative and an extended esoteric religious metaphor. Someone looking for insights, healing, gnosis and awareness of archetypes would do well to seek out more modern literature by Carl Jung, Stanislav Grof and Huston Smith.
  - adrianwaj 14y ago
    Very good suggestions, and I've touched on them all. Ken Wilber mentioned that the best thing a person can do to promote enlightenment is to simply share their beingness, not try to push any agenda. I tend to agree. I find Alex Jones' QA sessions to be very interesting. But none of this is fiction. add: AJ says he uses Linux personally and wants to get more deeply into it. He and Stallman agree open-source is the way to go because it's open, and any spyware or backdoors can be discovered. Keep Big Brother out. If AJ is out there getting Linux and Bitcoin (to a lesser extent) into people's minds, then that is a good thing in and of itself, I think.

cturner 14y ago

I'm struggling to take what you've said at face value - that the high school situation you've described has destroyed fiction for you. Are you now unable to read without searching for strained deeper meanings for things? Does this also affect television and movies, reading out picture books to children? Could it be that you've bought into your own fictional narrative? If so, then what you've said is true (the high school thing did destroy fiction for you, indirectly). But you have the tools within you to deal with that.

adrianwaj 14y ago
Being forced to churn through books I didn't enjoy destroyed fiction for me. Also, being forced to analyze things in certain ways also injected displeasure into the experience. I have trouble with fiction now either because I don't find it interesting, I don't need it, I don't trust fiction to inspire me or I don't trust myself to be inspired by it. I'm not sure, I'm not proud of it, but then again I'm not ashamed of it either. People that enjoy fiction have a charm about them, but I have enough of that anyway! add: I don't watch TV, nor watch films generally unless there's something very special about them. I dream a lot, so that's my entertainment. The real healing component from dreams comes when remembering them part way through the day.. that unlocks their subconscious energy for conscious use.
- R_Edward 14y ago
  High school and college literature classes dealt a serious setback to my readership too. Most (not all) of the books I had to read were worth reading, but like a fine beverage, many should be sipped and savored, not gulped and dismissed. What teachers seem to forget is that a student has a great many things on his plate, and can find it difficult indeed to set aside enough time to give a really good book its due. Then they give you an assignment like, identify ten symbols in the work, and explain what you think they symbolize. Remember, there's no single right answer--symbolism and abstract meaning is a result of the interaction between the reader and the text. When I hear someone say "there's no single right answer," I hear, "...but there are an awful lot of wrong answers, and chances are, yours is one of 'em." What I can say, though, is that once you get out of academia, give your mind a little time to refresh itself, and no longer feel the threat to your GPA if you interpret a book incorrectly, the enjoyment returns to reading. In some cases, you'll even go back to those books you had forced down your throat, re-read them, and enjoy them this time round! But not "The Things They Carried." I don't mind being surprised in a story, but I get annoyed when the style clearly suggests one thing, and then in a pique of self-referentiality, the author tugs the rug out from under you and tells you that... well, I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't had the misfortune yet. (No, it's really a pretty good book, and I have to admit the author got me good.)

chernevik 14y ago

Here's a suggestion. Read the story of David, all the way through, continuing into the early years of his son Solomon's reign. Pay special attention to Absalom's rebellion and the aftermath. Then read "The Godfather" by Mario Puzo. Compare and contrast Solomon with Michael Corleone. The Godfather movies are also outstanding, maybe better than the books. But they don't resonate the Bible story's theme of generational revenge quite so clearly.