4 ms·

Didn't you get the memo? Trump won 49.9% of the popular vote. That means we all need to pretend this is normal and OK now.

by tdeck 2y ago

coolspot 2y ago
[flagged]
- tdeck 2y ago
  You're still upset about the statues?
  - pjc50 2y ago
    People are weirdly defensive of the traitor statues.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - pjc50 2y ago
        [flagged]
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        >In 1865, Robert E. Lee wrote to a former Confederate soldier concerning his signing the Oath of Allegiance, and I quote: "This war, being at an end, the Southern States having laid down their arms, and the questions at issue between them and the Northern States having been decided, I believe it to be the duty of everyone to unite in the restoration of the country and the reestablishment of peace and harmony." -President Gerald Ford >Whereas the authority of the Federal Government having been reestablished in all the States and Territories within the jurisdiction of the United States, it is believed that such prudential reservations and exceptions as at the dates of said several proclamations were deemed necessary and proper may now be wisely and justly relinquished, and that an universal amnesty and pardon for participation in said rebellion extended to all who have borne any part therein will tend to secure permanent peace, order, and prosperity throughout the land, and to renew and fully restore confidence and fraternal feeling among the whole people, and their respect for and attachment to the National Government, designed by its patriotic founders for the general good: -President Andrew Johnson The Civil War is over, it ended over a century and a half ago. I again, sincerely, ask you to screw off with that false narrative which serves only to divide and weaken the unity and solidarity of the country.
        ramabananasumer 2y ago
        [dead]
        saagarjha 2y ago
        Can I ask you to do the same, or is that just something you pull out when you're upset about what other people say and not something you expect to have to do yourself?
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        It is decidedly not factual to call ex-Confederates traitors when they were pardoned, or do you not understand what a pardon is?[1] Ex-Confederates were traitors, that much is true. Were they never pardoned or otherwise acquitted of treason in a court of law then that would still be true today. Of course, that is not what happened: President Andrew Johnson pardoned them all unconditionally, and in the case of General Robert E. Lee (whose pardon was not processed due to clerical errors) his pardon was made effective retroactive to the date of application by an act of Congress. Ex-Confederates are all therefore excused of their crime of treason, and to still attack them further citing that crime is baseless and unwarranted. They are Americans, and the men who fought are all American heroes who ultimately wished for a united and healed nation. Calling Civil War era Americans traitors today is ruthlessly divisive rhetoric that only serves to sow conflict in a time when the country really does not need that kind of incendiary bullshit. Everyone who spews this false narrative should be ashamed of themselves, they are throwing mud upon those who chose to pursue peace instead of generational animosity. [1]: https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ALDE_00013316/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3...
        immibis 2y ago
        Pardoning someone for a crime they did does not mean they didn't do the crime.
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        Yes, pardoning someone basically means we are done speaking on the matter. Calling them traitors after they were pardoned is basically libel.
      - krapp 2y ago
        They were traitors. They waged war against the United States, attacking the seams of this very country's unity, which by even the Constitution's purposely narrow definition, is treason. They were pardoned for their treason because they were traitors.
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        Laws and Constitution amendments were written and passed to exclude ex-Confederates from the democratic process, but they were rendered moot once everyone calmed down and realized it was better for the country to reunite as one nation. These false narratives villifying and dividing the country long after the Civil War concluded are nonsense.
        notusmerican 2y ago
        [dead]
    - terrabiped 2y ago
      In the Bay Area we had the statues of Ulysses Grant [1], Francis Key [2], and Junipero Serra [3] removed. This isn't even the full list of all the monuments that were labeled "racist" or "oppressive". All was done a couple of years ago. Are these the traitors you're talking about? Even if people couldn't dig up anything against the person, the monument could simply be linked to the "wrong part of our history" and be removed, like the Thomas Fallon's statue in San Jose [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bust_of_Ulysses_S._Grant_(San_Francisco)#:~:text=On%20June%2019%2C%202020%2C%20the,brief%20ownership%20of%20a%20slave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bust_of_Ulysses_S._Grant_(San_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Francis_Scott_Key_(San_Francisco) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Francis_Scott_Key_(S... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Junípero_Serra_(San_Francisco) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Junípero_Serra_(San_... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Fallon#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Fallon#Legacy
      - saagarjha 2y ago
        > Ulysses Grant > On June 19, 2020, the monument was toppled by protestors and defaced with the words "Adios America" in red paint as a response to Grant's brief ownership of a slave. > Francis Key > The statue was toppled by vandals on June 19, 2020, in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. > Juniperro Serra > Other statues of Junípero Serra were involved as the protests expanded to include monuments of individuals associated with the controversy over the genocide of indigenous peoples in the Americas. > Thomas Fallon > Fallon remains a controversial figure in San Jose's history, owing to his role in the American Conquest of California. Besides Francis Key, which appears to have been vandalized rather than something that people specifically wanted removed, the rest of them do actually have reasons they were taken down? You can disagree with those but they do exist.
        terrabiped 2y ago
        My response was a counterexample to the the parent comment which implied that the only statues being removed are the statues of the traitors. None of the people I listed were traitors. For the people I listed, I'd encourage you to read more about them and form your own opinion instead of just quoting back from the links I shared earlier. There is very little reason to believe that Serra treated the indigenous people differently from the rest of his mission or that he didn't believe in what he was preaching. Similarly, almost nothing is known about why Grant had William Jones for a year, but Grant's character had been proven through years of real action - fighting the war and, later, fighting the KKK. People just clung to some speculative theories, interpreted them in the least charitable way, and get offended by it. While everyone else sees that the topic was labeled as "racist" or "controversial" and tries to distance themselves from it.
- exe34 2y ago
  I never understood the removal of statues. I think everybody is capable of good and bad - we should still celebrate the good stuff they did and simply add a note that says "they were humans of their time and they screwed up by doing..... - let's not forget that even the great can screw up." otherwise we keep perpetuating the myth that the great/rich/powerful can do no wrong.
  - ocschwar 2y ago
    Most of the statues we're talking about were installed during the Civil Rights era as an explicit flex meant to intimidate African Americans.
    - exe34 2y ago
      here in the UK we had the same burn the -witch+statue- panic and ours were imperial leaders of some sort - but the people they oppressed were oceans away.

Didn't you get the memo? Trump won 49.9% of the popular vote. That means we all need to pretend this is normal and OK now.

by tdeck 2y ago

Didn't you get the memo? Trump won 49.9% of the popular vote. That means we all need to pretend this is normal and OK now.

coolspot 2y ago

[flagged]

tdeck 2y ago
You're still upset about the statues?
- pjc50 2y ago
  People are weirdly defensive of the traitor statues.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - pjc50 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        >In 1865, Robert E. Lee wrote to a former Confederate soldier concerning his signing the Oath of Allegiance, and I quote: "This war, being at an end, the Southern States having laid down their arms, and the questions at issue between them and the Northern States having been decided, I believe it to be the duty of everyone to unite in the restoration of the country and the reestablishment of peace and harmony." -President Gerald Ford >Whereas the authority of the Federal Government having been reestablished in all the States and Territories within the jurisdiction of the United States, it is believed that such prudential reservations and exceptions as at the dates of said several proclamations were deemed necessary and proper may now be wisely and justly relinquished, and that an universal amnesty and pardon for participation in said rebellion extended to all who have borne any part therein will tend to secure permanent peace, order, and prosperity throughout the land, and to renew and fully restore confidence and fraternal feeling among the whole people, and their respect for and attachment to the National Government, designed by its patriotic founders for the general good: -President Andrew Johnson The Civil War is over, it ended over a century and a half ago. I again, sincerely, ask you to screw off with that false narrative which serves only to divide and weaken the unity and solidarity of the country.
        ramabananasumer 2y ago
        [dead]
        saagarjha 2y ago
        Can I ask you to do the same, or is that just something you pull out when you're upset about what other people say and not something you expect to have to do yourself?
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        It is decidedly not factual to call ex-Confederates traitors when they were pardoned, or do you not understand what a pardon is?[1] Ex-Confederates were traitors, that much is true. Were they never pardoned or otherwise acquitted of treason in a court of law then that would still be true today. Of course, that is not what happened: President Andrew Johnson pardoned them all unconditionally, and in the case of General Robert E. Lee (whose pardon was not processed due to clerical errors) his pardon was made effective retroactive to the date of application by an act of Congress. Ex-Confederates are all therefore excused of their crime of treason, and to still attack them further citing that crime is baseless and unwarranted. They are Americans, and the men who fought are all American heroes who ultimately wished for a united and healed nation. Calling Civil War era Americans traitors today is ruthlessly divisive rhetoric that only serves to sow conflict in a time when the country really does not need that kind of incendiary bullshit. Everyone who spews this false narrative should be ashamed of themselves, they are throwing mud upon those who chose to pursue peace instead of generational animosity. [1]: https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ALDE_00013316/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3...
        immibis 2y ago
        Pardoning someone for a crime they did does not mean they didn't do the crime.
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        Yes, pardoning someone basically means we are done speaking on the matter. Calling them traitors after they were pardoned is basically libel.
    - krapp 2y ago
      They were traitors. They waged war against the United States, attacking the seams of this very country's unity, which by even the Constitution's purposely narrow definition, is treason. They were pardoned for their treason because they were traitors.
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        Laws and Constitution amendments were written and passed to exclude ex-Confederates from the democratic process, but they were rendered moot once everyone calmed down and realized it was better for the country to reunite as one nation. These false narratives villifying and dividing the country long after the Civil War concluded are nonsense.
      - notusmerican 2y ago
        [dead]
  - terrabiped 2y ago
    In the Bay Area we had the statues of Ulysses Grant [1], Francis Key [2], and Junipero Serra [3] removed. This isn't even the full list of all the monuments that were labeled "racist" or "oppressive". All was done a couple of years ago. Are these the traitors you're talking about? Even if people couldn't dig up anything against the person, the monument could simply be linked to the "wrong part of our history" and be removed, like the Thomas Fallon's statue in San Jose [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bust_of_Ulysses_S._Grant_(San_Francisco)#:~:text=On%20June%2019%2C%202020%2C%20the,brief%20ownership%20of%20a%20slave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bust_of_Ulysses_S._Grant_(San_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Francis_Scott_Key_(San_Francisco) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Francis_Scott_Key_(S... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Junípero_Serra_(San_Francisco) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Junípero_Serra_(San_... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Fallon#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Fallon#Legacy
    - saagarjha 2y ago
      > Ulysses Grant > On June 19, 2020, the monument was toppled by protestors and defaced with the words "Adios America" in red paint as a response to Grant's brief ownership of a slave. > Francis Key > The statue was toppled by vandals on June 19, 2020, in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. > Juniperro Serra > Other statues of Junípero Serra were involved as the protests expanded to include monuments of individuals associated with the controversy over the genocide of indigenous peoples in the Americas. > Thomas Fallon > Fallon remains a controversial figure in San Jose's history, owing to his role in the American Conquest of California. Besides Francis Key, which appears to have been vandalized rather than something that people specifically wanted removed, the rest of them do actually have reasons they were taken down? You can disagree with those but they do exist.
      - terrabiped 2y ago
        My response was a counterexample to the the parent comment which implied that the only statues being removed are the statues of the traitors. None of the people I listed were traitors. For the people I listed, I'd encourage you to read more about them and form your own opinion instead of just quoting back from the links I shared earlier. There is very little reason to believe that Serra treated the indigenous people differently from the rest of his mission or that he didn't believe in what he was preaching. Similarly, almost nothing is known about why Grant had William Jones for a year, but Grant's character had been proven through years of real action - fighting the war and, later, fighting the KKK. People just clung to some speculative theories, interpreted them in the least charitable way, and get offended by it. While everyone else sees that the topic was labeled as "racist" or "controversial" and tries to distance themselves from it.
exe34 2y ago
I never understood the removal of statues. I think everybody is capable of good and bad - we should still celebrate the good stuff they did and simply add a note that says "they were humans of their time and they screwed up by doing..... - let's not forget that even the great can screw up." otherwise we keep perpetuating the myth that the great/rich/powerful can do no wrong.
- ocschwar 2y ago
  Most of the statues we're talking about were installed during the Civil Rights era as an explicit flex meant to intimidate African Americans.
  - exe34 2y ago
    here in the UK we had the same burn the -witch+statue- panic and ours were imperial leaders of some sort - but the people they oppressed were oceans away.