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It's very easy to have rose colored glasses when remembering the 90s. I'm not trying to discount your entire point, but rather, argue that what was true in tha

It's very easy to have rose colored glasses when remembering the 90s. I'm not trying to discount your entire point, but rather, argue that what was true in that economic climate might not be the same today. Do I believe people were enthusiastic, collaborative, and highly productive when it seemed nothing could go wrong and the economy was booming? Absolutely. It's a lot harder to pull everyone together and knock out projects at an "insane" rate when the backdrop is the post-2007, post-covid climate. Stock market aside, there's something off about the purchasing power of the dollar and most young people feel it deeply. It's demotivating to say the least. I think that's why you're seeing such a strong resistance to RTO. If massive wealth growth isn't an option like it was in the 90s, then give me comfort.

jemmyw 2y ago
Nothing wrong with the dollar, things are cheap, food is cheap, even after the last couple of years inflation. What's broken is housing. People in the 90s had fewer toys but much more affordable housing.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I agree. I had my first house built in a new subdivision - 2800 square feet 4/2 - for $170K in south metro Atlanta in 2002. I was only making $60K at the time. I even had my second house built in 2016 in north metro Atlanta in the “good school system” - 3100 square feet 5 bed /3.5 bath for $335K and only put around $12K down. I sold it last year for $670K after moving to a condo in Florida that cost $340K. I could never move to the state tax free Florida with not many local tech jobs if it weren’t for remote work
backtobasix 2y ago
Except I also work with my local divisions, and the teams that work on the same floor near the same cubes are vastly more productive. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I'm here to burst the echo chamber bubble that "RTO is evil greed". There is literally merit to it, but if you haven't had broad perspective managing and delivering successful and unsuccessful projects, it will be invisible to you. Some people just want to sit in a cube in code forever and ever. Awesome, that's great. But don't pretend you have insight into the larger processes above you if you don't take time to learn and experience them.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
  There is merit to WFO, but there is also merit to WFH. The problem is it is not being honestly discussed in terms of its merits. And we know this, because when WFH crowd actually notes verifiable metrics, management trots out unverifiable, unquantifiable serendipitous conversations at the watercooler. << There is literally merit to it, but if you haven't had broad perspective managing and delivering successful and unsuccessful projects, it will be invisible to you. It is not my job to make my manager's job easier. It is management's job to make our job easier; not harder. The priorities are backwards, because management also happens to hold a lot of power over rank and file. Quite frankly, the management is simply too lazy to manage WFH well. << But don't pretend you have insight into the larger processes above you if you don't take time to learn and experience them. I only have anecdotes, but I am not sure you are right. Can you elaborate on the examples in your head?
- scarface_74 2y ago
  For the last 4.5 years, my job has been half supporting sales as the tech person working with them and the client and half leading a team once the sale closes. The teams and the customer are located all across the US. So I am definitely not one of the people who just wants to “code forever”. I’ll hop on a plane for a business trip in a heartbeat and have no problem with schmoozing, business dinners, etc I also have had experience delivering successful and unsuccessful projects. If I did a retrospective of each, none had anything to do with whether the team was collocated. While I’ve only done consulting remotely, I have been a team lead at a product company in office prior to 2020. I started working remotely and in consulting at the height of Covid in June 2020. It’s just that too many people haven’t learned how to evolve and work in a remote first culture. Before the gate keeping starts, I’m 50 and have been in the industry almost 30 years and I started in consulting when a job in the cloud consulting department at AWS (full time direct hire) fell into my lap and now I’m a “staff software architect” at a third party consulting company.
- rubicon33 2y ago
  For the record I totally agree. There are absolutely merits to in office work.
A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
<< It's very easy to have rose colored glasses when remembering the 90s. Nostalgia is a possibility, but I was watching an old reality TV show and let me tell you. Even that fake, scripted stuff was simply of different quality. It was hopeful, even inspired at times. Yes, maybe it was partly reflection of the times it was created ( easy access to money, jobs, cheap food and so on ), but I do not think we can just blame tinted glasses for remembering 90s fondly.
- ghaff 2y ago
  Depends where you were and what you were doing. The company I was at in the late 80s and almost all of the 90s was mostly not doing great off and on. Had some fun projects but I was definitely done when I left at the end of the decade. On the other hand, I was able to buy a house mid-decade and had some great extended vacations. 9-5 in the office pretty much every day except for some business trips wasn't great but I didn't have that bad a commute.

jemmyw 2y ago

Nothing wrong with the dollar, things are cheap, food is cheap, even after the last couple of years inflation. What's broken is housing. People in the 90s had fewer toys but much more affordable housing.

scarface_74 2y ago
I agree. I had my first house built in a new subdivision - 2800 square feet 4/2 - for $170K in south metro Atlanta in 2002. I was only making $60K at the time. I even had my second house built in 2016 in north metro Atlanta in the “good school system” - 3100 square feet 5 bed /3.5 bath for $335K and only put around $12K down. I sold it last year for $670K after moving to a condo in Florida that cost $340K. I could never move to the state tax free Florida with not many local tech jobs if it weren’t for remote work

backtobasix 2y ago

Except I also work with my local divisions, and the teams that work on the same floor near the same cubes are vastly more productive. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I'm here to burst the echo chamber bubble that "RTO is evil greed". There is literally merit to it, but if you haven't had broad perspective managing and delivering successful and unsuccessful projects, it will be invisible to you. Some people just want to sit in a cube in code forever and ever. Awesome, that's great. But don't pretend you have insight into the larger processes above you if you don't take time to learn and experience them.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
There is merit to WFO, but there is also merit to WFH. The problem is it is not being honestly discussed in terms of its merits. And we know this, because when WFH crowd actually notes verifiable metrics, management trots out unverifiable, unquantifiable serendipitous conversations at the watercooler. << There is literally merit to it, but if you haven't had broad perspective managing and delivering successful and unsuccessful projects, it will be invisible to you. It is not my job to make my manager's job easier. It is management's job to make our job easier; not harder. The priorities are backwards, because management also happens to hold a lot of power over rank and file. Quite frankly, the management is simply too lazy to manage WFH well. << But don't pretend you have insight into the larger processes above you if you don't take time to learn and experience them. I only have anecdotes, but I am not sure you are right. Can you elaborate on the examples in your head?
scarface_74 2y ago
For the last 4.5 years, my job has been half supporting sales as the tech person working with them and the client and half leading a team once the sale closes. The teams and the customer are located all across the US. So I am definitely not one of the people who just wants to “code forever”. I’ll hop on a plane for a business trip in a heartbeat and have no problem with schmoozing, business dinners, etc I also have had experience delivering successful and unsuccessful projects. If I did a retrospective of each, none had anything to do with whether the team was collocated. While I’ve only done consulting remotely, I have been a team lead at a product company in office prior to 2020. I started working remotely and in consulting at the height of Covid in June 2020. It’s just that too many people haven’t learned how to evolve and work in a remote first culture. Before the gate keeping starts, I’m 50 and have been in the industry almost 30 years and I started in consulting when a job in the cloud consulting department at AWS (full time direct hire) fell into my lap and now I’m a “staff software architect” at a third party consulting company.
rubicon33 2y ago
For the record I totally agree. There are absolutely merits to in office work.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago

<< It's very easy to have rose colored glasses when remembering the 90s. Nostalgia is a possibility, but I was watching an old reality TV show and let me tell you. Even that fake, scripted stuff was simply of different quality. It was hopeful, even inspired at times. Yes, maybe it was partly reflection of the times it was created ( easy access to money, jobs, cheap food and so on ), but I do not think we can just blame tinted glasses for remembering 90s fondly.

ghaff 2y ago
Depends where you were and what you were doing. The company I was at in the late 80s and almost all of the 90s was mostly not doing great off and on. Had some fun projects but I was definitely done when I left at the end of the decade. On the other hand, I was able to buy a house mid-decade and had some great extended vacations. 9-5 in the office pretty much every day except for some business trips wasn't great but I didn't have that bad a commute.