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I'm not sure this is something that is solved by tech. It sounds like they simply don't have enough staff, whether that a budget problem or hiring problem IDK.

I'm not sure this is something that is solved by tech. It sounds like they simply don't have enough staff, whether that a budget problem or hiring problem IDK. The article mentions they have a 50% reduction in new hires which either says it's hard to be competent, the job is too demanding, or both. They had 1 tower with 1 operator and no redundancy at a fairly busy airport, which is definitely concerning.

leeoniya 2y ago
> I'm not sure this is something that is solved by tech in this case it seems like it could definitely have been solved by tech. both aircraft were traveling at predictable paths and opertating nominally.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  In the leaked ATC recording, the display is showing a collision alert before the impact. It just doesn't have any capability to do anything about them, it has to rely on the air traffic controller to resolve the issue. You could argue that helicopters, being very nimble craft, should have ADS-B receivers and provide display and sound their own collision warnings to their pilots. That's perfectly possible, I just don't think it's mandated
jandrewrogers 2y ago
This is a nearly perfect problem for tech. We solve and automate very similar problems in other contexts at scale but FAA is extremely conservative about tech.
giantg2 2y ago
Your comment assumes the current system can be scaled indefinitely. But you also acknowledge that we can't currently fill the staffing. I also explicitly called out that the modernization might not be tech changes but procedure changes (realistically it would likely be procedure changes made possible through tech). Doing something to distribute information differently could result in redundancy such that if the commercial craft have a 1-3 mile ADS-B view around them, they can check that ATC isn't giving them bad instructions and that others are following directions.
- cogman10 2y ago
  > Your comment assumes the current system can be scaled indefinitely. Why couldn't it be? We need fewer ATC than we need pilots, by a long shot. The actual requested new hires for ATC is in the range of 2k (with 1k expected to stay on staff). With roughly a 120k salary, and assuming all 2k stay on-board that's what, an additional $200mil needed to fully fund? Meanwhile, the airline industry had a $30b net profit, so it doesn't look like this is even something that'd bankrupt the industry if we taxed them to cover the costs of ATC. It's a 1% tax that's needed. Even with a super duper fancy modernized system, we'd still want towers staffed sufficiently. Having just 1 person there is a problem even if everything is super modernized. When an issue comes up that the system can't or isn't handling well that's 1 person to make all the calls. Hopefully 2 things aren't happening and hopefully they don't need or want a second opinion. As for hiring competent people, the DC metro has 6.3 million people. I find it really hard to believe there's not 3 more in the area that could handle being an ATC operator. And it's not like we don't already have 99% of the existing buildings, infrastructure, and computers already setup. It's literally just the personnel that's lacking.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    "I find it really hard to believe there's not 3 more in the area that couldn't handle being an ATC operator." They might be capable, but why would they want to? "Why couldn't it be?" Things like coordination and communication in high traffic environments don't scale well. Finding efficiencies in the procedures and systems can eliminate potential miscommunication and missed handoffs. "And it's not like we don't already have 99% of the existing buildings, infrastructure, and computers already setup. It's literally just the personnel that's lacking." Actually only some airports have been upgraded while others are waiting. Do you think another person would have prevented this incident? From the recordings and facts so far, it doesn't seem like it.
hwillis 2y ago
It is a budget problem, not a hiring problem: https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttigieg-us-needs-air-traffic-controllers/ https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttig...

leeoniya 2y ago

> I'm not sure this is something that is solved by tech in this case it seems like it could definitely have been solved by tech. both aircraft were traveling at predictable paths and opertating nominally.

wongarsu 2y ago
In the leaked ATC recording, the display is showing a collision alert before the impact. It just doesn't have any capability to do anything about them, it has to rely on the air traffic controller to resolve the issue. You could argue that helicopters, being very nimble craft, should have ADS-B receivers and provide display and sound their own collision warnings to their pilots. That's perfectly possible, I just don't think it's mandated

jandrewrogers 2y ago

This is a nearly perfect problem for tech. We solve and automate very similar problems in other contexts at scale but FAA is extremely conservative about tech.

giantg2 2y ago

Your comment assumes the current system can be scaled indefinitely. But you also acknowledge that we can't currently fill the staffing. I also explicitly called out that the modernization might not be tech changes but procedure changes (realistically it would likely be procedure changes made possible through tech). Doing something to distribute information differently could result in redundancy such that if the commercial craft have a 1-3 mile ADS-B view around them, they can check that ATC isn't giving them bad instructions and that others are following directions.

cogman10 2y ago
> Your comment assumes the current system can be scaled indefinitely. Why couldn't it be? We need fewer ATC than we need pilots, by a long shot. The actual requested new hires for ATC is in the range of 2k (with 1k expected to stay on staff). With roughly a 120k salary, and assuming all 2k stay on-board that's what, an additional $200mil needed to fully fund? Meanwhile, the airline industry had a $30b net profit, so it doesn't look like this is even something that'd bankrupt the industry if we taxed them to cover the costs of ATC. It's a 1% tax that's needed. Even with a super duper fancy modernized system, we'd still want towers staffed sufficiently. Having just 1 person there is a problem even if everything is super modernized. When an issue comes up that the system can't or isn't handling well that's 1 person to make all the calls. Hopefully 2 things aren't happening and hopefully they don't need or want a second opinion. As for hiring competent people, the DC metro has 6.3 million people. I find it really hard to believe there's not 3 more in the area that could handle being an ATC operator. And it's not like we don't already have 99% of the existing buildings, infrastructure, and computers already setup. It's literally just the personnel that's lacking.
- giantg2 2y ago
  "I find it really hard to believe there's not 3 more in the area that couldn't handle being an ATC operator." They might be capable, but why would they want to? "Why couldn't it be?" Things like coordination and communication in high traffic environments don't scale well. Finding efficiencies in the procedures and systems can eliminate potential miscommunication and missed handoffs. "And it's not like we don't already have 99% of the existing buildings, infrastructure, and computers already setup. It's literally just the personnel that's lacking." Actually only some airports have been upgraded while others are waiting. Do you think another person would have prevented this incident? From the recordings and facts so far, it doesn't seem like it.

hwillis 2y ago

It is a budget problem, not a hiring problem: https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttigieg-us-needs-air-traffic-controllers/ https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttig...