6 ms·

Authoritarian Coups Are Gradual Then Sudden

66 points by Kluggy 2y ago

vincnetas 2y ago
Note that this article is from 2021
cocacola1 2y ago
This is a bit too prescient. Unnerving, really.
- vincnetas 2y ago
  "a bit"???
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throwawaymaroon 2y ago
[dead]
HPMOR 2y ago
The republic is dead. Long live The Democratic People’s Republic of the United States.
- popcalc 2y ago
  Right wing authoritarian states typically use the "Republic of" prefix. DPR is traditionally a Communist signifier.
  - HPMOR 2y ago
    I do actually appreciate the pedantic comment. However you make an implicit and false dichotomy between communist and authoritarian states. These two are much more similar, in some cases identical, than to a liberal democracy.
qwertox 2y ago
We currently have this problem in Germany. The right-wing party AfD is claiming to be constitutional and democratic, yet they have constantly shown through small actions that they are 1. extremists, 2. unconstitutional and 3. not democratic. The most clear example happened last year, when they tried to take power of the parliament of the state Thuringia. They attempted to remove voting rights to parliament members during a transition in order to strengthen their position. While this was clearly unconstitutional, they pretended it wasn't, until the Federal Constitutional Court ruled that they were in the wrong. Only then they were like "Of course we accept this ruling", just to pretend to be democratic. Their current path is to attempt to gain power in the Federal Constitutional Court, in order also influence future rulings so that the they can succeed next time. This now brings the problem, that while there are many who want to rule the AfD to be unconstitutional, that is, to forbid the party to exist, it is a risky move to bring this case to court, because if it fails just barely to succeed, it would strengthen that party. So they are always walking on the edge of legality and democracy in order to stretch the bounds, to get away with shortly doing illegal things like saying banned slogans to show the right-wing extremists that they can rely on this party to work for their interests or saying things like "Real men are right-wing, then they will be capable of getting girlfriends" [0] In the case of the US, I think they now crossed this line. Let's hope that democracy is strong enough, but I still believe it is. In both countries. [0] https://www-br-de.translate.goog/nachrichten/netzwelt/wie-die-afd-auf-tiktok-junge-maenner-umgarnt,UEdFx4Q?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true https://www-br-de.translate.goog/nachrichten/netzwelt/wie-di...
- ChrisNorstrom 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - sumuyuda 2y ago
    This reason is the same as everywhere in the west. Capitalism has created a massive wealth inequality where the normal person have less and less, with increasing costs they can’t afford. Right wing parties come in and blame the immigrants as the reason for the decline. They offer simple answers rather than the hard truth that the system is inherently unfair and unjust. The real solution is to move to a post capitalism economic system but no politicians from the mainstream parties are pushing for this as companies have to much influence and power in society.
CarRamrod 2y ago
>Infiltrating police departments and the enlisted ranks of the military >Taking over school boards and local boards of elections Just to play devil's advocate, is it possible that the far right has been under the impression that the far left has been doing the same thing?
- talldayo 2y ago
  If they do believe that, I'd have to wonder why. Having people that don't look like you or disagree with you on school boards and in military service doesn't mean you've been "infiltrated" by an adversary. Liberals certainly don't act that way towards conservative service members or even private schools.
  - CarRamrod 2y ago
    What constitutes infiltration?
    - talldayo 2y ago
      Conspiracy to infiltrate, arranged by an adversarial power. Gay people are not "infiltrating" the military on behalf of anyone. School boards are not being "infiltrated" by Democrats that pay the same taxes for public education that Republicans do. These are basic tenants of political representation and personal liberty. They are, in principle, the most American things imaginable.
- relaxing 2y ago
  Yes of course they’ve been told this. But that is delusional since there has been no left-wing coup in the United States government.
- archagon 2y ago
  No, they claim that the far left has been doing it as an excuse to do the same. It's lesson one from the authoritarian textbook: always accuse the enemy of your own misdeeds. Very similar to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO.
ChrisNorstrom 2y ago
[flagged]
- unsnap_biceps 2y ago
  > Says the democrat who did nothing when Gavin Newsom made it illegal to check for ID at California polls. All these other countries check ID for voting, you democrats don't want it, why is that? https://www.democracydocket.com/news-alerts/california-gover https://www.democracydocket.com/news-alerts/california-gover... Here you go, I know I'm a little confused as to your point here. The article you link says that to register to vote, you have to prove your identity and validity to vote via a driver’s license number, a California identification number, or the last four digits of their social security number. To vote, you need to verify your voter registration information. What exactly does requiring you to verify your registration in addition to the information previously validated to register? Is the belief that illegal voters are able to fraudulently register but wouldn't use the same fraudulent information the day of the vote?
  - ChrisNorstrom 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - unsnap_biceps 2y ago
      Phantom voters would require an ID to be created before they can register to vote, so an ID check wouldn't help. With thousands registered at one address. From your article, the proposed law didn't limit valid voters based upon their id address. So I don't see how it would help. Dead voters are removed from the registration database and wouldn't be counted, unless they passed away out of country. Moved out of state would be a possibility, but the person that moved would have to have not received a new id or license in their new state, which may happen but seems largely unlikely. Do you have any data showing how large these potential issues are? Checking id correctly at time of vote slows down the process and causes less people to vote. If there's a meaningful amount of fraud, it should be investigated and fixed, but we should strive towards allowing as many of our fellow citizens to vote as we can. I'm just unsure that there's a level of fraud from your examples that would balance out the reduction in people voting. But if you have data to back it up, I'm happy to read it and possibly change my opinion.
jaybrendansmith 2y ago
All my Republican friends tell me this kind of talk is 'shrill' and would never happen. I certainly hope they're correct, but that story about Pinochet is terrifying.
- archagon 2y ago
  I wonder if they’re secretly hoping it comes true.

66 points by Kluggy 2y ago

vincnetas 2y ago

Note that this article is from 2021

cocacola1 2y ago

This is a bit too prescient. Unnerving, really.

vincnetas 2y ago
"a bit"???

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

throwawaymaroon 2y ago

[dead]

HPMOR 2y ago

The republic is dead. Long live The Democratic People’s Republic of the United States.

popcalc 2y ago
Right wing authoritarian states typically use the "Republic of" prefix. DPR is traditionally a Communist signifier.
- HPMOR 2y ago
  I do actually appreciate the pedantic comment. However you make an implicit and false dichotomy between communist and authoritarian states. These two are much more similar, in some cases identical, than to a liberal democracy.

qwertox 2y ago

We currently have this problem in Germany. The right-wing party AfD is claiming to be constitutional and democratic, yet they have constantly shown through small actions that they are 1. extremists, 2. unconstitutional and 3. not democratic. The most clear example happened last year, when they tried to take power of the parliament of the state Thuringia. They attempted to remove voting rights to parliament members during a transition in order to strengthen their position. While this was clearly unconstitutional, they pretended it wasn't, until the Federal Constitutional Court ruled that they were in the wrong. Only then they were like "Of course we accept this ruling", just to pretend to be democratic. Their current path is to attempt to gain power in the Federal Constitutional Court, in order also influence future rulings so that the they can succeed next time. This now brings the problem, that while there are many who want to rule the AfD to be unconstitutional, that is, to forbid the party to exist, it is a risky move to bring this case to court, because if it fails just barely to succeed, it would strengthen that party. So they are always walking on the edge of legality and democracy in order to stretch the bounds, to get away with shortly doing illegal things like saying banned slogans to show the right-wing extremists that they can rely on this party to work for their interests or saying things like "Real men are right-wing, then they will be capable of getting girlfriends" [0] In the case of the US, I think they now crossed this line. Let's hope that democracy is strong enough, but I still believe it is. In both countries. [0] https://www-br-de.translate.goog/nachrichten/netzwelt/wie-die-afd-auf-tiktok-junge-maenner-umgarnt,UEdFx4Q?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true https://www-br-de.translate.goog/nachrichten/netzwelt/wie-di...

ChrisNorstrom 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- sumuyuda 2y ago
  This reason is the same as everywhere in the west. Capitalism has created a massive wealth inequality where the normal person have less and less, with increasing costs they can’t afford. Right wing parties come in and blame the immigrants as the reason for the decline. They offer simple answers rather than the hard truth that the system is inherently unfair and unjust. The real solution is to move to a post capitalism economic system but no politicians from the mainstream parties are pushing for this as companies have to much influence and power in society.

CarRamrod 2y ago

>Infiltrating police departments and the enlisted ranks of the military >Taking over school boards and local boards of elections Just to play devil's advocate, is it possible that the far right has been under the impression that the far left has been doing the same thing?

talldayo 2y ago
If they do believe that, I'd have to wonder why. Having people that don't look like you or disagree with you on school boards and in military service doesn't mean you've been "infiltrated" by an adversary. Liberals certainly don't act that way towards conservative service members or even private schools.
- CarRamrod 2y ago
  What constitutes infiltration?
  - talldayo 2y ago
    Conspiracy to infiltrate, arranged by an adversarial power. Gay people are not "infiltrating" the military on behalf of anyone. School boards are not being "infiltrated" by Democrats that pay the same taxes for public education that Republicans do. These are basic tenants of political representation and personal liberty. They are, in principle, the most American things imaginable.
relaxing 2y ago
Yes of course they’ve been told this. But that is delusional since there has been no left-wing coup in the United States government.
archagon 2y ago
No, they claim that the far left has been doing it as an excuse to do the same. It's lesson one from the authoritarian textbook: always accuse the enemy of your own misdeeds. Very similar to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO.

ChrisNorstrom 2y ago

[flagged]

unsnap_biceps 2y ago
> Says the democrat who did nothing when Gavin Newsom made it illegal to check for ID at California polls. All these other countries check ID for voting, you democrats don't want it, why is that? https://www.democracydocket.com/news-alerts/california-gover https://www.democracydocket.com/news-alerts/california-gover... Here you go, I know I'm a little confused as to your point here. The article you link says that to register to vote, you have to prove your identity and validity to vote via a driver’s license number, a California identification number, or the last four digits of their social security number. To vote, you need to verify your voter registration information. What exactly does requiring you to verify your registration in addition to the information previously validated to register? Is the belief that illegal voters are able to fraudulently register but wouldn't use the same fraudulent information the day of the vote?
- ChrisNorstrom 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - unsnap_biceps 2y ago
    Phantom voters would require an ID to be created before they can register to vote, so an ID check wouldn't help. With thousands registered at one address. From your article, the proposed law didn't limit valid voters based upon their id address. So I don't see how it would help. Dead voters are removed from the registration database and wouldn't be counted, unless they passed away out of country. Moved out of state would be a possibility, but the person that moved would have to have not received a new id or license in their new state, which may happen but seems largely unlikely. Do you have any data showing how large these potential issues are? Checking id correctly at time of vote slows down the process and causes less people to vote. If there's a meaningful amount of fraud, it should be investigated and fixed, but we should strive towards allowing as many of our fellow citizens to vote as we can. I'm just unsure that there's a level of fraud from your examples that would balance out the reduction in people voting. But if you have data to back it up, I'm happy to read it and possibly change my opinion.

jaybrendansmith 2y ago

All my Republican friends tell me this kind of talk is 'shrill' and would never happen. I certainly hope they're correct, but that story about Pinochet is terrifying.

archagon 2y ago
I wonder if they’re secretly hoping it comes true.