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Sutely, when there is a head of the FAA, that person occasionally takes a vacation or other time off. These plane crashes are totally unrelated to politics or s

Sutely, when there is a head of the FAA, that person occasionally takes a vacation or other time off. These plane crashes are totally unrelated to politics or staffing.

angoragoats 2y ago
> Sutely, when there is a head of the FAA, that person occasionally takes a vacation or other time off. What does that have to do with anything? My boss takes vacations too, but if my team didn’t have a manager we would surely be worse off. > These plane crashes are totally unrelated to politics or staffing. Please provide a citation for this claim.
- tastyfreeze 2y ago
  If the CEO of a corporation is absent does all the mid and bottom level stuff just stop working? FAA may have been headless but the head never really had anything to do with the people getting stuff done.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    If everyone in the company gets a “consider resigning” email, though? Probably some mayhem. https://www.opm.gov/fork https://www.opm.gov/fork > Below is the email that was sent to federal employees on January 28, 2025 presenting a deferred resignation offer. If you did not respond to that email and wish to accept the deferred resignation offer, you may do so by following these steps. https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/trump-administration-offering-buyouts-to-government-workers-unwilling-to-return-to-office/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/trump-administration-offeri... > The White House expects up to 10% of federal employees to quit in September in a program meant to end work-from-home practices, senior administration officials told CBS News.
    - tastyfreeze 2y ago
      Yes, I understand that. ATC was woefully understaffed and overworked long before Trump was in office. It would be really hard to definitively tie Trump actions to a particular incident.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        Yes, that’s tough, like tracking deaths back to coal plants. We know it happens, we just can’t really say which specific ones, so it’s “cost of doing business” instead of murder. At the very least, extending resignation offers to 2M federal employees, including at the FAA, seems likely to exacerbate the problem going forwards.
        DiggyJohnson 2y ago
        You are trying to rhetorically connect these issues when they are unrelated. You can be appalled by the state of US ATC and appalled by the new administration without looking for a non existent reason to connect the two.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        “We have a huge staffing problem. We are hoping 5-10% of our staff quit, it will save billions!” They seem a tiny bit connected.
  - angoragoats 2y ago
    > If the CEO of a corporation is absent does all the mid and bottom level stuff just stop working? If they leave abruptly without planning for their absence? Yes, quite possibly.
- listenallyall 2y ago
  I'd agree, if there was no head of the agency for many months, confusion and lack of direction would drift down and be disruptive. But 8 days after he left? That's equivalent to a vacation, and, as you noted, people manage just fine. I'll revise my earlier statement. It has nothing to do with the staffing of the agency's head. Yes, if there were not enough traffic controllers, that's indeed a staffing problem. But if the former head of the agency let that go on, putting air safety at risk, then he deserved to be fired.
  - hattmall 2y ago
    The problem with ATC is that they changed from a skills based assessment to a biographical one. This is no joke. They had an explicit goal of increasing ATC diversity so they passed over hundreds of people who took the previously traditional route and graduated from FAA Air Traffic University Programs. Those candidates still had to pass the training but they have had a much higher attrition rate. So despite increased hiring ATC continues to be understaffed. https://viewfromthewing.com/diversity-in-the-skies-faas-controversial-shift-in-air-traffic-controller-hiring/ https://viewfromthewing.com/diversity-in-the-skies-faas-cont...
    - somename9 2y ago
      And that policy directly led to the deaths earlier this week. The ATC was clearly not a White male from the audio.
  - angoragoats 2y ago
    > I'll revise my earlier statement. It has nothing to do with the staffing of the agency's head. Please provide a citation for this claim.
    - listenallyall 2y ago
      Me. I'm the citation. It is not the FAA chief's fault - nor is it because there was no FAA chief for 8 days - that a rogue military helicopter was flying above its well-defined airspace ceiling. https://youtu.be/uFc6JFb2MqY https://youtu.be/uFc6JFb2MqY
happytoexplain 2y ago
How can you know it's totally unrelated any more than somebody can know it's definitely related?
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago
  By real knowledge of the problem domain. I know that sort of argumentation is unpopular, but it’s genuinely correct in this case. If anything, this incident has been predicted and warned for years and years and years, and is an indictment of FAA and ATC policy over the last couple decades, accelerating over the last 2-8 years or so. The reason we can assume there’s no connection between the new administration and this incident is… because there’s no reason to make that assumption, based on the reality of ATC policy, (lack of) changes in the problem domain, and longstanding known risks in the status quo.
  - angoragoats 2y ago
    That this has been a known problem for a while (which I agree with) does not necessarily mean that recent actions haven’t made the problem worse. The parent asked how you can know it’s “definitely unrelated,” which seems like a pretty high bar that you haven’t come close to meeting.
ceejayoz 2y ago
“These plane crashes are totally unrelated to politics or staffing.” The FAA seems to disagree. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/30/business/air-traffic-control-staffing-plane-crash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/30/business/air-traffic-cont... > Staffing Was ‘Not Normal’ at Reagan Airport Tower, According to F.A.A. Report > The report, reviewed by The New York Times, said that one controller was communicating with both helicopters and planes. Those jobs are typically assigned to two people, not one.
- listenallyall 2y ago
  So are you saying is the FAA didn't have enough controllers to keep the skies safe, ultimately leading to this week's collision? That sounds like a very strong reason to fire whoever is the head of that agency.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    The likely culprit for the understaffing is Congress. The pandemic also messed with training new ones for a while.
    - listenallyall 2y ago
      How about the guy who was in the White House for the last 4 years? The guy who passed a so-called infrastructure bill? No responsibility for ensuring air safety in there?
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        The guy they ramped up hiring under post-pandemic? https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-hits-air-traffic-controller-hiring-goal https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-hits-air-traffic-controller... > Today the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) announced that it exceeded its goal of hiring 1,800 air traffic controllers in 2024, with a final total of 1,811 for Fiscal Year 2024. As the largest number of hires in nearly a decade, this marks important progress in the FAA’s work to reverse the decades-long air traffic controller staffing level decline. Training controllers takes 2-4 years. Are we just gonna go from one debunkable claim to another all evening? If we’re doling out responsibility, hoping 10% of them resign probably won’t help. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/white-house-offers-incentives-federal-employees-resign-warns-downsizing-2025-01-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/white-house-offers-incentiv...
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Vacations are often planned with responsibilities delegated. If the head of a company gets pushed out because the richest man in the world has a vendetta against that company (in this case the FAA was trying to fine SpaceX and upset Musk) that can cause strife within in the company, especially when that same person writes an email (fork in the road is language Musk used in very similar emails he's sent in the past) telling you that you should quit.

Sutely, when there is a head of the FAA, that person occasionally takes a vacation or other time off. These plane crashes are totally unrelated to politics or staffing.

angoragoats 2y ago

> Sutely, when there is a head of the FAA, that person occasionally takes a vacation or other time off. What does that have to do with anything? My boss takes vacations too, but if my team didn’t have a manager we would surely be worse off. > These plane crashes are totally unrelated to politics or staffing. Please provide a citation for this claim.

tastyfreeze 2y ago
If the CEO of a corporation is absent does all the mid and bottom level stuff just stop working? FAA may have been headless but the head never really had anything to do with the people getting stuff done.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  If everyone in the company gets a “consider resigning” email, though? Probably some mayhem. https://www.opm.gov/fork https://www.opm.gov/fork > Below is the email that was sent to federal employees on January 28, 2025 presenting a deferred resignation offer. If you did not respond to that email and wish to accept the deferred resignation offer, you may do so by following these steps. https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/trump-administration-offering-buyouts-to-government-workers-unwilling-to-return-to-office/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/trump-administration-offeri... > The White House expects up to 10% of federal employees to quit in September in a program meant to end work-from-home practices, senior administration officials told CBS News.
  - tastyfreeze 2y ago
    Yes, I understand that. ATC was woefully understaffed and overworked long before Trump was in office. It would be really hard to definitively tie Trump actions to a particular incident.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      Yes, that’s tough, like tracking deaths back to coal plants. We know it happens, we just can’t really say which specific ones, so it’s “cost of doing business” instead of murder. At the very least, extending resignation offers to 2M federal employees, including at the FAA, seems likely to exacerbate the problem going forwards.
      - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
        You are trying to rhetorically connect these issues when they are unrelated. You can be appalled by the state of US ATC and appalled by the new administration without looking for a non existent reason to connect the two.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        “We have a huge staffing problem. We are hoping 5-10% of our staff quit, it will save billions!” They seem a tiny bit connected.
- angoragoats 2y ago
  > If the CEO of a corporation is absent does all the mid and bottom level stuff just stop working? If they leave abruptly without planning for their absence? Yes, quite possibly.
listenallyall 2y ago
I'd agree, if there was no head of the agency for many months, confusion and lack of direction would drift down and be disruptive. But 8 days after he left? That's equivalent to a vacation, and, as you noted, people manage just fine. I'll revise my earlier statement. It has nothing to do with the staffing of the agency's head. Yes, if there were not enough traffic controllers, that's indeed a staffing problem. But if the former head of the agency let that go on, putting air safety at risk, then he deserved to be fired.
- hattmall 2y ago
  The problem with ATC is that they changed from a skills based assessment to a biographical one. This is no joke. They had an explicit goal of increasing ATC diversity so they passed over hundreds of people who took the previously traditional route and graduated from FAA Air Traffic University Programs. Those candidates still had to pass the training but they have had a much higher attrition rate. So despite increased hiring ATC continues to be understaffed. https://viewfromthewing.com/diversity-in-the-skies-faas-controversial-shift-in-air-traffic-controller-hiring/ https://viewfromthewing.com/diversity-in-the-skies-faas-cont...
  - somename9 2y ago
    And that policy directly led to the deaths earlier this week. The ATC was clearly not a White male from the audio.
- angoragoats 2y ago
  > I'll revise my earlier statement. It has nothing to do with the staffing of the agency's head. Please provide a citation for this claim.
  - listenallyall 2y ago
    Me. I'm the citation. It is not the FAA chief's fault - nor is it because there was no FAA chief for 8 days - that a rogue military helicopter was flying above its well-defined airspace ceiling. https://youtu.be/uFc6JFb2MqY https://youtu.be/uFc6JFb2MqY

happytoexplain 2y ago

How can you know it's totally unrelated any more than somebody can know it's definitely related?

DiggyJohnson 2y ago
By real knowledge of the problem domain. I know that sort of argumentation is unpopular, but it’s genuinely correct in this case. If anything, this incident has been predicted and warned for years and years and years, and is an indictment of FAA and ATC policy over the last couple decades, accelerating over the last 2-8 years or so. The reason we can assume there’s no connection between the new administration and this incident is… because there’s no reason to make that assumption, based on the reality of ATC policy, (lack of) changes in the problem domain, and longstanding known risks in the status quo.
- angoragoats 2y ago
  That this has been a known problem for a while (which I agree with) does not necessarily mean that recent actions haven’t made the problem worse. The parent asked how you can know it’s “definitely unrelated,” which seems like a pretty high bar that you haven’t come close to meeting.

ceejayoz 2y ago

“These plane crashes are totally unrelated to politics or staffing.” The FAA seems to disagree. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/30/business/air-traffic-control-staffing-plane-crash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/30/business/air-traffic-cont... > Staffing Was ‘Not Normal’ at Reagan Airport Tower, According to F.A.A. Report > The report, reviewed by The New York Times, said that one controller was communicating with both helicopters and planes. Those jobs are typically assigned to two people, not one.

listenallyall 2y ago
So are you saying is the FAA didn't have enough controllers to keep the skies safe, ultimately leading to this week's collision? That sounds like a very strong reason to fire whoever is the head of that agency.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  The likely culprit for the understaffing is Congress. The pandemic also messed with training new ones for a while.
  - listenallyall 2y ago
    How about the guy who was in the White House for the last 4 years? The guy who passed a so-called infrastructure bill? No responsibility for ensuring air safety in there?
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      The guy they ramped up hiring under post-pandemic? https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-hits-air-traffic-controller-hiring-goal https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-hits-air-traffic-controller... > Today the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) announced that it exceeded its goal of hiring 1,800 air traffic controllers in 2024, with a final total of 1,811 for Fiscal Year 2024. As the largest number of hires in nearly a decade, this marks important progress in the FAA’s work to reverse the decades-long air traffic controller staffing level decline. Training controllers takes 2-4 years. Are we just gonna go from one debunkable claim to another all evening? If we’re doling out responsibility, hoping 10% of them resign probably won’t help. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/white-house-offers-incentives-federal-employees-resign-warns-downsizing-2025-01-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/white-house-offers-incentiv...

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

Vacations are often planned with responsibilities delegated. If the head of a company gets pushed out because the richest man in the world has a vendetta against that company (in this case the FAA was trying to fine SpaceX and upset Musk) that can cause strife within in the company, especially when that same person writes an email (fork in the road is language Musk used in very similar emails he's sent in the past) telling you that you should quit.