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For search, use Kagi. You don’t have to use their AI products at all to just use search.

frakt0x90 2y ago
Strongly agree. Whenever I search something and am met with a sea of TOP 10 X; THE 20 BEST Y; 20 REASONS Z; etc. I go Kagi and am immediately refreshed.
- TimTheTinker 2y ago
  And yet Kagi isn't anywhere near as good as Google was ~13 years ago. Yes - a big part of that is that online content is so much worse than it used to be. But it became bad over time because of what Google incentivized.
  - acaloiar 2y ago
    Google ~13 years ago dealt with a much less complicated search landscape where 1. Its own products weren't (as much) part of the search result quality problem. Today Google has hungry product managers from Ads, Youtube, and various AI products convincing higher-ups that their product deserves higher placement. That placement used to be sacrosanct. 2. The daily volume of AI-generated garbage content 13 years ago was probably a rounding error in today's volume So Google was operating in a different landscape than Kagi of today. They had to do a lot less to achieve the quality they had. I disagree that that Kagi "isn't anywhere near as good as Google was ~13 years ago". It's near. For me personally, it's better because I'm never served first-party ads.
pjc50 2y ago
Left field tip if you think a search engine is hiding stuff: Yandex. They're not actually Russian any more, but they're far enough down the list of search engines that nobody bothers to DMCA them.
- labster 2y ago
  They are in fact Russian any more, the Dutch company that owned Yandex sold to Russian investors last July.
- ponector 2y ago
  Maybe you have a Chinese search engine to suggest? North Korean should be even better
segasaturn 2y ago
If Kagi made a cheaper "no AI" tier I would be happy to subscribe. AI is costly to run, so even if you don't use the AI it's priced into your subscription fee - you're paying for an expensive product you don't want or use. e: according to Kagi's pricing page they do have a 'no AI' tier, but it limits your number of searches to 300/month. Seems like a totally arbitrary limitation, but its still better than forced AI.
- stevage 2y ago
  Yeah I'm on the 300 per month tier. I tend to hit that limit after about 3 weeks, which is certainly annoying.
  - grahamj 2y ago
    yeah I hit it in about two. I just signed up monthly to try it out for a bit but am wavering on whether I consider it worth it. It's good but I'm not sure it's enough better than DDG to pay for. And for AI I'd usually rather have API access and use it with tools rather than a web chat.
    - grahamj 2y ago
      [flagged]
- VertanaNinjai 2y ago
  I understand your point in general, but I don’t think it applies to Kagi. Users were paying the same monthly fee and then the company added those features on with no extra subscription cost. I also like that it doesn’t clutter my search. It doesn’t appear unless I press the AI button or end my search with a question mark (can also be disabled). The only extra costs are if you use the (opt-in optional) AI Assistant which is a web UI to access various models for chatting purposes. As an aside, they recently updated this UI so it’s actually usable as a ChatGPT or Claude alternative.

Strongly agree. Whenever I search something and am met with a sea of TOP 10 X; THE 20 BEST Y; 20 REASONS Z; etc. I go Kagi and am immediately refreshed.

TimTheTinker 2y ago
And yet Kagi isn't anywhere near as good as Google was ~13 years ago. Yes - a big part of that is that online content is so much worse than it used to be. But it became bad over time because of what Google incentivized.
- acaloiar 2y ago
  Google ~13 years ago dealt with a much less complicated search landscape where 1. Its own products weren't (as much) part of the search result quality problem. Today Google has hungry product managers from Ads, Youtube, and various AI products convincing higher-ups that their product deserves higher placement. That placement used to be sacrosanct. 2. The daily volume of AI-generated garbage content 13 years ago was probably a rounding error in today's volume So Google was operating in a different landscape than Kagi of today. They had to do a lot less to achieve the quality they had. I disagree that that Kagi "isn't anywhere near as good as Google was ~13 years ago". It's near. For me personally, it's better because I'm never served first-party ads.

pjc50 2y ago

Left field tip if you think a search engine is hiding stuff: Yandex. They're not actually Russian any more, but they're far enough down the list of search engines that nobody bothers to DMCA them.

labster 2y ago
They are in fact Russian any more, the Dutch company that owned Yandex sold to Russian investors last July.
ponector 2y ago
Maybe you have a Chinese search engine to suggest? North Korean should be even better

segasaturn 2y ago

If Kagi made a cheaper "no AI" tier I would be happy to subscribe. AI is costly to run, so even if you don't use the AI it's priced into your subscription fee - you're paying for an expensive product you don't want or use. e: according to Kagi's pricing page they do have a 'no AI' tier, but it limits your number of searches to 300/month. Seems like a totally arbitrary limitation, but its still better than forced AI.

stevage 2y ago
Yeah I'm on the 300 per month tier. I tend to hit that limit after about 3 weeks, which is certainly annoying.
- grahamj 2y ago
  yeah I hit it in about two. I just signed up monthly to try it out for a bit but am wavering on whether I consider it worth it. It's good but I'm not sure it's enough better than DDG to pay for. And for AI I'd usually rather have API access and use it with tools rather than a web chat.
  - grahamj 2y ago
    [flagged]
VertanaNinjai 2y ago
I understand your point in general, but I don’t think it applies to Kagi. Users were paying the same monthly fee and then the company added those features on with no extra subscription cost. I also like that it doesn’t clutter my search. It doesn’t appear unless I press the AI button or end my search with a question mark (can also be disabled). The only extra costs are if you use the (opt-in optional) AI Assistant which is a web UI to access various models for chatting purposes. As an aside, they recently updated this UI so it’s actually usable as a ChatGPT or Claude alternative.