5 ms·

That's like saying, "you can't tell me what your name is, or whether you'd like to be called Mr., Ms. or Mrs. That's not self expression, that's controlling my

That's like saying, "you can't tell me what your name is, or whether you'd like to be called Mr., Ms. or Mrs. That's not self expression, that's controlling my speech, and so that's censorship." The same logic is employed in both cases. The difference is that telling someone your name has no political charge to it. You can dislike the practice of listing your pronouns, but it's perfectly ordinary to tell people how you'd like them to refer to you.

llamaimperative 2y ago
And to be explicit: if someone wants to call you by a different name or pronoun, they're absolutely within their First Amendment rights to do so, ergo someone just listing their preferred pronouns doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  >they're absolutely within their First Amendment rights to do so, Unless someone can rile up a mob into trying to embarass a large corporation or a small business into canceling you. You have a right to free speech, but you don't have a right to be sane when there's a low-intensity riot of unhinged individuals threatening you with destitution and terror.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    > Unless someone can rile up a mob into trying to embarass a large corporation or a small business into canceling you. As is their First Amendment right. > you don't have a right to be sane when there's a low-intensity riot of unhinged individuals threatening you with destitution Sounds snowflakey
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
      >As is their First Amendment right. It's not clear that this is a protected first amendment right. You're not allowed to commit fraud just because the mode of fraud is one of communication. The words you speak may be protected, but not the outcome (fraud). Why would harassing people and ruining their lives be any more protected? >Sounds snowflakey Sure, if that helps with your butthurt. Call me names. You think people haven't been doing that my whole life? It's been 30 or 40 years since that hurt my feelings.
      - butter999 2y ago
        Feel free to provide evidence that harassment is occuring, it sounds like people are stating how they'd like to be treated (clearly free speech), other people are disregarding it (again, free speech), and they're being told that's rude (still free speech). None of that is harassment. If someone sets expectations or boundaries at work, and you disregard them, sure, you could be fired. Working at a particular place is a privilege, not a right. Professionalism necessitates going along to get along with people who may be from different cultures or subcultures, who may have different expectations of how they should be treated, different political views or values, who you may find annoying or frustrating. That's life. > Sure, if that helps with your butthurt. I think you should take a step back and reflect on this remark. You are the one who came to this conversation with complaints.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        > It's not clear that this is a protected first amendment right Yes it is, actually This is how the marketplace of ideas actually works. You have bad ideas and say stupid shit, people stop listening to you, associating with you, doing business with you, enjoying your company, inviting you over, and so on. They'll sometimes even call you mean names! All of that is the marketplace in action.
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
>That's like saying, "you can't tell me what your name is, No, it's the opposite of that. Third-person pronouns are the ones people use to discuss third persons among themselves. The person who "wants their pronouns used" isn't party to the conversation. They're attempting to put their own non-name words into other people's mouths. One might make a case that you could choose your own second-person pronouns, but at least in the English language that's egalitarian, everyone's just a "you". >or whether you'd like to be called Mr., Ms. or Mrs. I call men "mister" out of respect. My other word for people who don't merit respect is "asshole". If you don't like the first, I'll use the second one. I don't even use "sir" if I can help it... no English lords in this country. >You can dislike the practice of listing your pronouns, I can do more than that now. I think I can ignore it without getting fired. >but it's perfectly ordinary to tell people how you'd like them to refer to you. It's not ordinary. At no point in human history, in any human language I am aware of, has anyone ever gotten to choose their own third-person pronouns. It's absurd and bizarre. I'm not required to acknowledge the existence of imaginary friends to anyone over the age of 7, I'm not required to play into other people's schizophrenic hallucinations, and I don't have to try to overcome my 50 years of habit in how English is spoken.
- wrl 2y ago
  > No, it's the opposite of that. Third-person pronouns are the ones people use to discuss third persons among themselves. The person who "wants their pronouns used" isn't party to the conversation. That's also how names work, though. As in, "Are you coming to Billy's barbeque?" when Billy is not in the conversation. > At no point in human history, in any human language I am aware of, has anyone ever gotten to choose their own third-person pronouns. It's absurd and bizarre. What's the realistic difference between pronouns and nicknames? Like a "Richard" going by a "Rich", or "Rick"? That's their decision, right? Or someone choosing to go by their middle name rather than their first name?
- locopati 2y ago
  When I say I use they/them pronouns, I am telling you I am non-binary and am not a man or a woman. If you go around saying he or she, you're telling me you don't care enough to treat me respectfully. Just the same as if I said my name is X and you called me a diminutive form of X that I don't use. I'm not talking about accidental references here. I'm talking about whatever principled stand you think you're taking. So, it's not about forcing you to do anything. It's asking you to be a decent human who acknowledges another human as they are, rather than as you think they should be.

llamaimperative 2y ago

And to be explicit: if someone wants to call you by a different name or pronoun, they're absolutely within their First Amendment rights to do so, ergo someone just listing their preferred pronouns doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights.

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
>they're absolutely within their First Amendment rights to do so, Unless someone can rile up a mob into trying to embarass a large corporation or a small business into canceling you. You have a right to free speech, but you don't have a right to be sane when there's a low-intensity riot of unhinged individuals threatening you with destitution and terror.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  > Unless someone can rile up a mob into trying to embarass a large corporation or a small business into canceling you. As is their First Amendment right. > you don't have a right to be sane when there's a low-intensity riot of unhinged individuals threatening you with destitution Sounds snowflakey
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    >As is their First Amendment right. It's not clear that this is a protected first amendment right. You're not allowed to commit fraud just because the mode of fraud is one of communication. The words you speak may be protected, but not the outcome (fraud). Why would harassing people and ruining their lives be any more protected? >Sounds snowflakey Sure, if that helps with your butthurt. Call me names. You think people haven't been doing that my whole life? It's been 30 or 40 years since that hurt my feelings.
    - butter999 2y ago
      Feel free to provide evidence that harassment is occuring, it sounds like people are stating how they'd like to be treated (clearly free speech), other people are disregarding it (again, free speech), and they're being told that's rude (still free speech). None of that is harassment. If someone sets expectations or boundaries at work, and you disregard them, sure, you could be fired. Working at a particular place is a privilege, not a right. Professionalism necessitates going along to get along with people who may be from different cultures or subcultures, who may have different expectations of how they should be treated, different political views or values, who you may find annoying or frustrating. That's life. > Sure, if that helps with your butthurt. I think you should take a step back and reflect on this remark. You are the one who came to this conversation with complaints.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      > It's not clear that this is a protected first amendment right Yes it is, actually This is how the marketplace of ideas actually works. You have bad ideas and say stupid shit, people stop listening to you, associating with you, doing business with you, enjoying your company, inviting you over, and so on. They'll sometimes even call you mean names! All of that is the marketplace in action.

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago

>That's like saying, "you can't tell me what your name is, No, it's the opposite of that. Third-person pronouns are the ones people use to discuss third persons among themselves. The person who "wants their pronouns used" isn't party to the conversation. They're attempting to put their own non-name words into other people's mouths. One might make a case that you could choose your own second-person pronouns, but at least in the English language that's egalitarian, everyone's just a "you". >or whether you'd like to be called Mr., Ms. or Mrs. I call men "mister" out of respect. My other word for people who don't merit respect is "asshole". If you don't like the first, I'll use the second one. I don't even use "sir" if I can help it... no English lords in this country. >You can dislike the practice of listing your pronouns, I can do more than that now. I think I can ignore it without getting fired. >but it's perfectly ordinary to tell people how you'd like them to refer to you. It's not ordinary. At no point in human history, in any human language I am aware of, has anyone ever gotten to choose their own third-person pronouns. It's absurd and bizarre. I'm not required to acknowledge the existence of imaginary friends to anyone over the age of 7, I'm not required to play into other people's schizophrenic hallucinations, and I don't have to try to overcome my 50 years of habit in how English is spoken.

wrl 2y ago
> No, it's the opposite of that. Third-person pronouns are the ones people use to discuss third persons among themselves. The person who "wants their pronouns used" isn't party to the conversation. That's also how names work, though. As in, "Are you coming to Billy's barbeque?" when Billy is not in the conversation. > At no point in human history, in any human language I am aware of, has anyone ever gotten to choose their own third-person pronouns. It's absurd and bizarre. What's the realistic difference between pronouns and nicknames? Like a "Richard" going by a "Rich", or "Rick"? That's their decision, right? Or someone choosing to go by their middle name rather than their first name?
locopati 2y ago
When I say I use they/them pronouns, I am telling you I am non-binary and am not a man or a woman. If you go around saying he or she, you're telling me you don't care enough to treat me respectfully. Just the same as if I said my name is X and you called me a diminutive form of X that I don't use. I'm not talking about accidental references here. I'm talking about whatever principled stand you think you're taking. So, it's not about forcing you to do anything. It's asking you to be a decent human who acknowledges another human as they are, rather than as you think they should be.