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It seems that this cycle of civilization will end and businesses will still not grasp the very simple fact that often times programming is both engineering and

It seems that this cycle of civilization will end and businesses will still not grasp the very simple fact that often times programming is both engineering and creativity. Oh well.

adregan 2y ago
Let’s not all point a finger at the “business” boogeyman who doesn’t understand coding is creative without acknowledging that many programmers today are right there with them. The current state of interviews tells me that a lot of programmers prefer to think of it as software “engineering” rather than as a craft or trade. If creativity meant something to them, I wouldn’t spend all my time bored silly trying to memorize algorithms.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  Cool, okay. Nuance matters, I agree. Nuance also demands we point out at the businessmen who can't discern one programmer from another. Different people thrive in very different environments and this is, 99% of the time, ignored.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago
  > Let’s not all point a finger at the “business” boogeyman who doesn’t understand coding is creative without acknowledging that many programmers today are right there with them. > The current state of interviews tells me that a lot of programmers prefer to think of it as software “engineering” rather than as a craft or trade. Engineering (things) is a highly creative activity. (EDIT: See also the comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42893523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42893523 where drewcoo gives arguments for a similar statement).
drewcoo 2y ago
Engineering is creative. It's all about applying science to solve problems. And engineers love solving novel problems. Software often seems more like cooking than engineering, where most of the staff of a kitchen is focused more on mastery of patterns and techniques than on innovations, though. A friend liked showing us all the tricky things he learned to do on his way to becoming a chef. My father the engineer liked to show us models of the industrial robots he'd designed and talk about how he overcame difficult design problems.
dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
>businesses will still not grasp the very simple fact that often times programming is both engineering and creativity The solution (if there is one) is for the engineering/creative type to make and run businesses. Easier said than done.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  Indeed. That's a gross understatement even. And I'd argue that former nerds turn into predatory CEOs just fine, given enough time and money, too.
  - dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
    Well, it's true that money/power generally corrupts people, but the vast majority of nerds are sociopaths (a fact, as far as I'm concerned) to start with, which normally does not manifest in their daily lives because they are heads down involved in their technical craft 24/7, it comes to the fore (predatory trait or otherwise) when they assume top positions in the hierarchy. Then I think there is also the relatively rare situation of assumed, sociopathy when one realizes that the vast majority of their subordinates (or in general people) are a pretty sorry lot, if one where to peel back the veneer of civility and virtue signaling. I suspect that at least some successful technical founders of large companies fall into the category.

It seems that this cycle of civilization will end and businesses will still not grasp the very simple fact that often times programming is both engineering and creativity. Oh well.

adregan 2y ago

Let’s not all point a finger at the “business” boogeyman who doesn’t understand coding is creative without acknowledging that many programmers today are right there with them. The current state of interviews tells me that a lot of programmers prefer to think of it as software “engineering” rather than as a craft or trade. If creativity meant something to them, I wouldn’t spend all my time bored silly trying to memorize algorithms.

pdimitar 2y ago
Cool, okay. Nuance matters, I agree. Nuance also demands we point out at the businessmen who can't discern one programmer from another. Different people thrive in very different environments and this is, 99% of the time, ignored.
aleph_minus_one 2y ago
> Let’s not all point a finger at the “business” boogeyman who doesn’t understand coding is creative without acknowledging that many programmers today are right there with them. > The current state of interviews tells me that a lot of programmers prefer to think of it as software “engineering” rather than as a craft or trade. Engineering (things) is a highly creative activity. (EDIT: See also the comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42893523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42893523 where drewcoo gives arguments for a similar statement).

drewcoo 2y ago

Engineering is creative. It's all about applying science to solve problems. And engineers love solving novel problems. Software often seems more like cooking than engineering, where most of the staff of a kitchen is focused more on mastery of patterns and techniques than on innovations, though. A friend liked showing us all the tricky things he learned to do on his way to becoming a chef. My father the engineer liked to show us models of the industrial robots he'd designed and talk about how he overcame difficult design problems.

dennis_jeeves2 2y ago

>businesses will still not grasp the very simple fact that often times programming is both engineering and creativity The solution (if there is one) is for the engineering/creative type to make and run businesses. Easier said than done.

pdimitar 2y ago
Indeed. That's a gross understatement even. And I'd argue that former nerds turn into predatory CEOs just fine, given enough time and money, too.
- dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
  Well, it's true that money/power generally corrupts people, but the vast majority of nerds are sociopaths (a fact, as far as I'm concerned) to start with, which normally does not manifest in their daily lives because they are heads down involved in their technical craft 24/7, it comes to the fore (predatory trait or otherwise) when they assume top positions in the hierarchy. Then I think there is also the relatively rare situation of assumed, sociopathy when one realizes that the vast majority of their subordinates (or in general people) are a pretty sorry lot, if one where to peel back the veneer of civility and virtue signaling. I suspect that at least some successful technical founders of large companies fall into the category.