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I listen because he controls the most powerful army in history and can crush my country's economy if we don't allow his gang of oligarchs to mess with our democ

by exe34 2y ago

I listen because he controls the most powerful army in history and can crush my country's economy if we don't allow his gang of oligarchs to mess with our democracy. When the US sneezes, the whole world catches a cold.

vkou 2y ago
Sure, you listen in the same way that you listen to the demands of an armed gunman in a store. But you can't engage with trying to find any sense in it. His administration does not live in the same reality that anyone else does. Repeating the lies only gives them undeserved legitimacy.
- exe34 2y ago
  I rather thought my original post was dripping with sarcasm, but I understand that it doesn't translate as well in text. I quote the orangeführer and his sidekick to bury them (in ridicule), not to praise them.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  The way Trump works is that he's careless with details, entirely on purpose. Because it causes opponents to dispute the details he gets wrong, which in turn allows him to frame the debate. Compare this to someone who says something indisputably true, which no one can counter, and so then opponents ignore it and talk about something else instead. It also allows him to exaggerate, because if you say "we got the best numbers ever achieved in history" but it's actually "just" the best numbers in a century, opponents who point out that was actually done by Teddy Roosevelt 120 years ago and not since are only underlining that it hasn't been done in a long time, while making themselves look like pedants. But that doesn't mean that "Trump said it, therefore it's wrong" gets you out of the debate. For example: > President Trump stated unambiguously that the recent crash and tragic loss of life is due to DEI hires, even though all the pilots and air traffic controllers involved were able-bodied white (presumably heterosexual and cis-gendered) men. A plausible explanation for this is that because they were already all white men, new hires weren't allowed to be, so viable candidates were turned away, leading to under-staffing. Is that what actually happened? Someone would have to investigate it, but until they do, you can't be sure that Trump is even wrong, or that he's necessarily wrong on the logic of it as might apply to other cases in general regardless of what turns out to be the case here in particular. And in the meantime he's got people talking about the possible dangers of doing the thing he doesn't like.
  - vkou 2y ago
    He could be right, but so could a stopped clock. You don't look at one to check the time, and you don't listen to a word said by someone whose favorite dish is the Gish Gallop. If anything they are saying is right, someone who hasn't completely blown their credibility will eventually think of it. Or, they won't, and that's fine too, you're still better off on the net not trying to sift for candy in a large pile of shit. Likewise, sometimes wearing a seatbelt does more harm than good, but you can't actually predict before-the-fact when that's going to happen, and you shouldn't use that as a reason to not wear one. Attention is limited, and you can't waste it on serial frauds. The only thing he says that's often honest is what he intends to do. His words can teach you about him, but they won't teach you anything about the world.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      > He could be right, but so could a stopped clock. A stopped clock is right for two seconds a day out of 86400, i.e. 0.002% of the time. The problem with Trump is it's more like 30-50% of the time. And then there are three things you can do when he says something. You can ignore it, but that's not a great option when he's the President of the United States. You can dispute the narrow ways he gets the details wrong, but that's just pedantry and you'll spend all day doing it to no avail because he can say stuff like that faster than you can fact check the details. Or you can engage with the general shape of the argument he's trying to make and see if this is one of the times that there's actually something there. Which doesn't happen all the time, or even necessarily most of the time, but it's still often enough that universally assuming the opposite of anything he says isn't a valid heuristic.
      - vkou 2y ago
        As stopped clock is mostly right - within less than an hour of the truth - ~17% of the time. If you're requiring five nines-level precision, he is right precisely zero percent of the time. > but it's still often enough that universally assuming the opposite of anything he says isn't a valid heuristic. He doesn't have the magic power where the truth is always the opposite of what he says. It's just that what he says is white noise. Its Shannon entropy is near-zero. The response to that isn't to assume the opposite is correct. It's to just assume it's hallucinatory bullshit that's not worth listening to, or repeating, except to inform yourself on what he is going to do. His speech teaches us a lot about him, and nothing about anyone else.
eli_gottlieb 2y ago
Ok so maybe just stop letting the USA have that power. You think any realistic democracy can always elect good stewards of a world-spanning empire?

by exe34 2y ago

vkou 2y ago

Sure, you listen in the same way that you listen to the demands of an armed gunman in a store. But you can't engage with trying to find any sense in it. His administration does not live in the same reality that anyone else does. Repeating the lies only gives them undeserved legitimacy.

exe34 2y ago
I rather thought my original post was dripping with sarcasm, but I understand that it doesn't translate as well in text. I quote the orangeführer and his sidekick to bury them (in ridicule), not to praise them.
AnthonyMouse 2y ago
The way Trump works is that he's careless with details, entirely on purpose. Because it causes opponents to dispute the details he gets wrong, which in turn allows him to frame the debate. Compare this to someone who says something indisputably true, which no one can counter, and so then opponents ignore it and talk about something else instead. It also allows him to exaggerate, because if you say "we got the best numbers ever achieved in history" but it's actually "just" the best numbers in a century, opponents who point out that was actually done by Teddy Roosevelt 120 years ago and not since are only underlining that it hasn't been done in a long time, while making themselves look like pedants. But that doesn't mean that "Trump said it, therefore it's wrong" gets you out of the debate. For example: > President Trump stated unambiguously that the recent crash and tragic loss of life is due to DEI hires, even though all the pilots and air traffic controllers involved were able-bodied white (presumably heterosexual and cis-gendered) men. A plausible explanation for this is that because they were already all white men, new hires weren't allowed to be, so viable candidates were turned away, leading to under-staffing. Is that what actually happened? Someone would have to investigate it, but until they do, you can't be sure that Trump is even wrong, or that he's necessarily wrong on the logic of it as might apply to other cases in general regardless of what turns out to be the case here in particular. And in the meantime he's got people talking about the possible dangers of doing the thing he doesn't like.
- vkou 2y ago
  He could be right, but so could a stopped clock. You don't look at one to check the time, and you don't listen to a word said by someone whose favorite dish is the Gish Gallop. If anything they are saying is right, someone who hasn't completely blown their credibility will eventually think of it. Or, they won't, and that's fine too, you're still better off on the net not trying to sift for candy in a large pile of shit. Likewise, sometimes wearing a seatbelt does more harm than good, but you can't actually predict before-the-fact when that's going to happen, and you shouldn't use that as a reason to not wear one. Attention is limited, and you can't waste it on serial frauds. The only thing he says that's often honest is what he intends to do. His words can teach you about him, but they won't teach you anything about the world.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    > He could be right, but so could a stopped clock. A stopped clock is right for two seconds a day out of 86400, i.e. 0.002% of the time. The problem with Trump is it's more like 30-50% of the time. And then there are three things you can do when he says something. You can ignore it, but that's not a great option when he's the President of the United States. You can dispute the narrow ways he gets the details wrong, but that's just pedantry and you'll spend all day doing it to no avail because he can say stuff like that faster than you can fact check the details. Or you can engage with the general shape of the argument he's trying to make and see if this is one of the times that there's actually something there. Which doesn't happen all the time, or even necessarily most of the time, but it's still often enough that universally assuming the opposite of anything he says isn't a valid heuristic.
    - vkou 2y ago
      As stopped clock is mostly right - within less than an hour of the truth - ~17% of the time. If you're requiring five nines-level precision, he is right precisely zero percent of the time. > but it's still often enough that universally assuming the opposite of anything he says isn't a valid heuristic. He doesn't have the magic power where the truth is always the opposite of what he says. It's just that what he says is white noise. Its Shannon entropy is near-zero. The response to that isn't to assume the opposite is correct. It's to just assume it's hallucinatory bullshit that's not worth listening to, or repeating, except to inform yourself on what he is going to do. His speech teaches us a lot about him, and nothing about anyone else.

eli_gottlieb 2y ago

Ok so maybe just stop letting the USA have that power. You think any realistic democracy can always elect good stewards of a world-spanning empire?