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Do you have any thoughts (which you feel comfortable sharing) on the actual effectiveness or otherwise of these initiatives? Setting aside the dogma on both sid

Do you have any thoughts (which you feel comfortable sharing) on the actual effectiveness or otherwise of these initiatives? Setting aside the dogma on both sides, do they achieve their stated aims?

rbanffy 2y ago
It's difficult to isolate the effects of DEI - there are far too many confounding factors interfering. You might use effective masking when analyzing a submission that removes your own personal biases, but, after the hire, there is no way to hide the difference that could have impacted your assessment. Keeping biases in check is a daily exercise. I am aware of many of my own biases and I have to continuously fight back. There are people whose company I enjoy more than others, but I can't let that interfere with my professional judgment.
- gnfargbl 2y ago
  I agree that there's not much information to be gathered from a small sample, but there ought to be some tangible effects at the macro level. Is academia actually becoming more equal due to these initiatives? Are researchers who are hired as a result of inclusivity programmes as effective as researchers who are hired outside those programmes? These are things we ought to be able to measure.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    Brazil has some long running DEI programs for public colleges and universities and the general conclusion is that minority students who performed worse in admission tests but were enrolled based on quotas show very similar academic performance to the students who came from wealthier backgrounds. Some data hints that they perform better than their non DEI colleagues.
    - tialaramex 2y ago
      I work for a university. I know that for several undergraduate degree programmes (not by any means all of them, but several) we've measured and there's no evidence of any correlation between the academic achievements in related subjects prior to study and the eventual degree classification. Since apparently there's no point in testing them for "aptitude" or we don't know how to do so, it makes sense to have other criteria such as broadening participation. Or, you know, enrol the ones who'd be better on your sports teams, or who look prettier for prospectus photos, or something - just don't fool yourself that you care about some sort of pre-existing "talent".
      - EvgeniyZh 2y ago
        SAT/ACT scores are the best predictors of undergrad GPA as well as probability to have high income in the future, largely independent on the socio-economic background [1]. [1] https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/S...
      - fragmede 2y ago
        > Since apparently there's no point in testing them for "aptitude" That's a weird conclusion, but I don't have the data you're looking at. What out-of-the-box testing have you tried?

Do you have any thoughts (which you feel comfortable sharing) on the actual effectiveness or otherwise of these initiatives? Setting aside the dogma on both sides, do they achieve their stated aims?

rbanffy 2y ago

It's difficult to isolate the effects of DEI - there are far too many confounding factors interfering. You might use effective masking when analyzing a submission that removes your own personal biases, but, after the hire, there is no way to hide the difference that could have impacted your assessment. Keeping biases in check is a daily exercise. I am aware of many of my own biases and I have to continuously fight back. There are people whose company I enjoy more than others, but I can't let that interfere with my professional judgment.

gnfargbl 2y ago
I agree that there's not much information to be gathered from a small sample, but there ought to be some tangible effects at the macro level. Is academia actually becoming more equal due to these initiatives? Are researchers who are hired as a result of inclusivity programmes as effective as researchers who are hired outside those programmes? These are things we ought to be able to measure.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  Brazil has some long running DEI programs for public colleges and universities and the general conclusion is that minority students who performed worse in admission tests but were enrolled based on quotas show very similar academic performance to the students who came from wealthier backgrounds. Some data hints that they perform better than their non DEI colleagues.
  - tialaramex 2y ago
    I work for a university. I know that for several undergraduate degree programmes (not by any means all of them, but several) we've measured and there's no evidence of any correlation between the academic achievements in related subjects prior to study and the eventual degree classification. Since apparently there's no point in testing them for "aptitude" or we don't know how to do so, it makes sense to have other criteria such as broadening participation. Or, you know, enrol the ones who'd be better on your sports teams, or who look prettier for prospectus photos, or something - just don't fool yourself that you care about some sort of pre-existing "talent".
    - EvgeniyZh 2y ago
      SAT/ACT scores are the best predictors of undergrad GPA as well as probability to have high income in the future, largely independent on the socio-economic background [1]. [1] https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/S...
    - fragmede 2y ago
      > Since apparently there's no point in testing them for "aptitude" That's a weird conclusion, but I don't have the data you're looking at. What out-of-the-box testing have you tried?