4 ms·

Is that not what Equal Protection under the 14A (applied to the USG through the Due Process clause of the 5A) is for?

by nickburns 2y ago

tangent128 2y ago
Without enforcement mechanisms (a PIER plan in this context), the 14th Amendment is just blots of ink on paper.
- nickburns 2y ago
  The US Constitution protects the people from excessive acts of government, not the other way around. It says nothing about "enforcement mechanisms" which, should any actually be enacted by the legislature or ordered by the executive, are subject to constitutional challenge by the people before the judiciary (unless rendered moot by a superseding legislative act or executive order). Our constitutional republic is not merely "just blots of ink on paper" but rather alive and well.
- ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
  A PIER plan is not Equal Protection. For the last few years, a PIER plan is explicitly about Un-equal Protection in the service of achieving "equitable" outcomes.
  - larkost 2y ago
    How do you explain the un-equitable outcomes that we have been getting? The whole point of DEI is that there are (largely unconscious) biases that have been producing these un-equitable outcomes, and we need some conscious effort to get rid of them. If truly being race-blind (or any other way of dividing people that is not strictly merit) is really your goal, and you are aware of unconscious bias, then what are people really objecting to?
    - ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
      Can you offer any other possible explanations than "unconscious bias" that would lead to different outcomes? "Unconscious bias" is sociological dark matter. It is a kludge used to prop up otherwise ineffective social theories.
      - ANewFormation 2y ago
        Exactly. This [1] headline from the NYT pretty much sums up the issue: "To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions." Different groups of peoples have different strengths and different weaknesses. This isn't some sort of a problem that needs fixing. And if one does want to 'fix' it you need to start way earlier than at the e.g. hiring point. Want to beat that kid who's been playing violin for hours a day since he was 6? Ok, then your target demographic is 6 year olds, not professional orchestras. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-auditions-orchestras-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...
        larkost 2y ago
        I can't read the article, so I don't really know what they are arguing for there. The headline sounds a bit click-baity, so I don't want to guess what the content is. But looking from a sex standpoint blind auditions are responsible for a sweeping change in the ratio of men and women in professional orchestras (though men still outnumber women %60 to %40, but that is from a near %100 a while ago). This is absolutely a case to look at to demonstrate what unconscious biases are, and a wonderfully effective way of fighting it in one specific place.
        ANewFormation 2y ago
        The article is what you'd expect from the headline. The change in gender differences is easily explained by more girls pursuing music from an earlier age. More people (as a ratio) from a group competently doing something means you end up with more highly successful outliers from that group. Blind screening started in the 50s.

Is that not what Equal Protection under the 14A (applied to the USG through the Due Process clause of the 5A) is for?

tangent128 2y ago

Without enforcement mechanisms (a PIER plan in this context), the 14th Amendment is just blots of ink on paper.

nickburns 2y ago
The US Constitution protects the people from excessive acts of government, not the other way around. It says nothing about "enforcement mechanisms" which, should any actually be enacted by the legislature or ordered by the executive, are subject to constitutional challenge by the people before the judiciary (unless rendered moot by a superseding legislative act or executive order). Our constitutional republic is not merely "just blots of ink on paper" but rather alive and well.
ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
A PIER plan is not Equal Protection. For the last few years, a PIER plan is explicitly about Un-equal Protection in the service of achieving "equitable" outcomes.
- larkost 2y ago
  How do you explain the un-equitable outcomes that we have been getting? The whole point of DEI is that there are (largely unconscious) biases that have been producing these un-equitable outcomes, and we need some conscious effort to get rid of them. If truly being race-blind (or any other way of dividing people that is not strictly merit) is really your goal, and you are aware of unconscious bias, then what are people really objecting to?
  - ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
    Can you offer any other possible explanations than "unconscious bias" that would lead to different outcomes? "Unconscious bias" is sociological dark matter. It is a kludge used to prop up otherwise ineffective social theories.
    - ANewFormation 2y ago
      Exactly. This [1] headline from the NYT pretty much sums up the issue: "To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions." Different groups of peoples have different strengths and different weaknesses. This isn't some sort of a problem that needs fixing. And if one does want to 'fix' it you need to start way earlier than at the e.g. hiring point. Want to beat that kid who's been playing violin for hours a day since he was 6? Ok, then your target demographic is 6 year olds, not professional orchestras. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-auditions-orchestras-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...
      - larkost 2y ago
        I can't read the article, so I don't really know what they are arguing for there. The headline sounds a bit click-baity, so I don't want to guess what the content is. But looking from a sex standpoint blind auditions are responsible for a sweeping change in the ratio of men and women in professional orchestras (though men still outnumber women %60 to %40, but that is from a near %100 a while ago). This is absolutely a case to look at to demonstrate what unconscious biases are, and a wonderfully effective way of fighting it in one specific place.
        ANewFormation 2y ago
        The article is what you'd expect from the headline. The change in gender differences is easily explained by more girls pursuing music from an earlier age. More people (as a ratio) from a group competently doing something means you end up with more highly successful outliers from that group. Blind screening started in the 50s.