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> Increased racial diversity wasn't the only goal of the movement but it's the one that lead us to this PR. Is it? If you look at the deleted text, you’ll fin

by amluto 2y ago

> Increased racial diversity wasn't the only goal of the movement but it's the one that lead us to this PR. Is it? If you look at the deleted text, you’ll find gender identity, stress, trauma, and a whole lot of verbiage in general. And, while I don’t object to the actual actionable suggestions I found in this document, it’s not so hard to see how this attitude to DEI alienates a lot of people. For example: - I know someone who teaches a law class and has struggled to get approval to discuss and test “triggering” topics in family law. I expect most people think that classes should be able to teach their actual subject matter without this kind of bureaucracy in the way. - Anyone who has applied for an NSF grant needs to discuss “broader impacts”. I think there’s a fair amount of consensus that it’s utter nonsense. - Gender identity issues can be genuinely uncomfortable. Gender identity issues in sports can be extra uncomfortable. Maybe one side of the political spectrum is over the top in disliking trans rights, but perhaps the other side should acknowledge that having people with penises in women’s locker rooms would make a lot of people extremely uncomfortable. - Have you seen some of the more egregious lists, produced by DEI offices, of words and phrases that should be banned? Maybe 1% of the contents are on point. Maybe 30% are so outrageous that it makes one question the entire process. - There are plenty of highly questionable investigations by Title IX offices. Some are utterly outrageous. The overall process seems rather dubious, especially in the context of the US constitution. I think the forces that pushed for all this stuff in the first place should engage in a bit of self-reflection, at least to the extent of trying to understand how they might rub people the wrong way.

captain_precise 2y ago
> Gender identity issues can be genuinely uncomfortable. Gender identity issues in sports can be extra uncomfortable. Maybe one side of the political spectrum is over the top in disliking trans rights, but perhaps the other side should acknowledge that having people with penises in women’s locker rooms would make a lot of people extremely uncomfortable. The concern in sports was never about "penises in women's locker rooms". It was always about the participation of athletes who had gone through a male puberty in women's sports categories. That's why for example athletes like Caster Semenya and Imane khelif were caught in that, to name two recent and famous cases, who are intersex and not transgendered. I find it extremely distasteful to speculate about strangers' genitals (unless it's absolutely necessary) but nobody ever accused those two athletes of introducing "penises in the women's locker rooms". The outrage on social media absolutely was all about "penises in women's locker rooms" or in female toilets etc, but that's not where informed debate normally takes place. Unfortunately it seems that social media are increasingly the space where decisions are taken collectively. Read here about intersex athletes at the Olympics, as an introduction to the informed debate I mentioned above. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_and_intersex_athletes_at_the_Olympic_Games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_and_intersex_...
nunez 2y ago
All of this is exactly why I compared today's flavor of DEI, and the brash over-reaction against it, to the agile and DevOps movements. Agile is a very simple philosophy. It's only five principles! However, the extremes it's been taken to by some companies/coaches/consultants has created the visceral reaction we've seen here on Hacker News and elsewhere. I believe that this tends to happen with very simple concepts. Like "responding to change over following a plan," there are countless ways that "diversity" and "inclusion" can be "implemented." I agree with the anti-DEI school of thought that DEI programs can be implemented to an extreme that angers everyone and pleases no-one (like your friend's law class being held up on approval to discuss "triggering" topics, or endless and endlessly-long bias trainings that can't be skipped over). I also agree with DEI advocates that passing EOs that prohibit pronouns or chastise papers that mention "LGBT" or "pregnant women" isn't the right approach either.

by amluto 2y ago

captain_precise 2y ago

> Gender identity issues can be genuinely uncomfortable. Gender identity issues in sports can be extra uncomfortable. Maybe one side of the political spectrum is over the top in disliking trans rights, but perhaps the other side should acknowledge that having people with penises in women’s locker rooms would make a lot of people extremely uncomfortable. The concern in sports was never about "penises in women's locker rooms". It was always about the participation of athletes who had gone through a male puberty in women's sports categories. That's why for example athletes like Caster Semenya and Imane khelif were caught in that, to name two recent and famous cases, who are intersex and not transgendered. I find it extremely distasteful to speculate about strangers' genitals (unless it's absolutely necessary) but nobody ever accused those two athletes of introducing "penises in the women's locker rooms". The outrage on social media absolutely was all about "penises in women's locker rooms" or in female toilets etc, but that's not where informed debate normally takes place. Unfortunately it seems that social media are increasingly the space where decisions are taken collectively. Read here about intersex athletes at the Olympics, as an introduction to the informed debate I mentioned above. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_and_intersex_athletes_at_the_Olympic_Games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_and_intersex_...

nunez 2y ago

All of this is exactly why I compared today's flavor of DEI, and the brash over-reaction against it, to the agile and DevOps movements. Agile is a very simple philosophy. It's only five principles! However, the extremes it's been taken to by some companies/coaches/consultants has created the visceral reaction we've seen here on Hacker News and elsewhere. I believe that this tends to happen with very simple concepts. Like "responding to change over following a plan," there are countless ways that "diversity" and "inclusion" can be "implemented." I agree with the anti-DEI school of thought that DEI programs can be implemented to an extreme that angers everyone and pleases no-one (like your friend's law class being held up on approval to discuss "triggering" topics, or endless and endlessly-long bias trainings that can't be skipped over). I also agree with DEI advocates that passing EOs that prohibit pronouns or chastise papers that mention "LGBT" or "pregnant women" isn't the right approach either.