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Craigslist is probably within their legal rights here I would really call this into question for the copyright claims. The key claim is copyright infringement,

Craigslist is probably within their legal rights here I would really call this into question for the copyright claims. The key claim is copyright infringement, and the listings on Craigslist are almost certainly unprotected, much like telephone directory listings. They are statements of fact rather than creative works. Craigslist may attempt to claim copyright over reproduction of their database as a whole (compilation), but the Supreme Court has ruled that in order to be eligible the compilation must be "original in its selection, coordination, and arrangement", and Craigslist can hardly claim that. The breach of contract claims may be stronger though. The pages on the Google cache presumably still contain the ToS, and if they apply (who knows?) then PadMapper's use of Craigslist would likely constitute a breach. A ruling on this would be very interesting.

DanBlake 14y ago
Another thought is that padmapper is not /copying/ the data - They are summarizing it. So there could be a entire listing for a SF apartment with lots of details and padmapper would not copy any of it- instead they would just make notes - 3 bedroom, location, price, pictures and then link back to CL if someone clicks the listing on PM
learc83 14y ago
>The breach of contract claims may be stronger though. The pages on the Google cache presumably still contain the ToS Would this work? Can a phonebook just put a section at the beginning of this page that by reading this book you are agreeing to the ToS which state you can't copy it? I know most ToS contain a section about by using this service you are agreeing to the ToS. But I think there is a good argument that Padmapper isn't actual using the service since they aren't getting the information from Craigslist's servers. Am I using a service, and thus bound by contract if I look at a screengrab of a website on a third party website (that contains a ToS). I've said before though that Craigslist could invent fictitious entries, and sue Padmapper for copying those creative works, just like mapmakers do with fake towns.
- jahewson 14y ago
  Would it work? Well, web pages are cached by ISPs all the time. The nature of the internet is that data is buffered all over the place. The argument seems to be that because the data has been at rest for a few days, the ToS no longer applies - this seems like a fairly weak argument, but who knows. As for phone books, a shrink-wrap license on a CD-ROM phone book which prohibited copying was upheld by the US courts (ProCD), so that copying was a breach of contract even though the underlying data was unprotected. > PadMapper isn't actually 'using' the service. Using is a wonderfully subjective word, and I'd expect accesing, and making use of to be acceptable synonyms. > I've said before though that Craigslist could invent fictitious entries, and sue Padmapper for copying those creative works, just like mapmakers do with fake towns. These are known as "trap streets" and US federal court has ruled that they are not protectable. Map makers are able to sue because the rest of their map is protectable; the trap streets simply catch the infringer red-handed.

DanBlake 14y ago

Another thought is that padmapper is not /copying/ the data - They are summarizing it. So there could be a entire listing for a SF apartment with lots of details and padmapper would not copy any of it- instead they would just make notes - 3 bedroom, location, price, pictures and then link back to CL if someone clicks the listing on PM

learc83 14y ago

>The breach of contract claims may be stronger though. The pages on the Google cache presumably still contain the ToS Would this work? Can a phonebook just put a section at the beginning of this page that by reading this book you are agreeing to the ToS which state you can't copy it? I know most ToS contain a section about by using this service you are agreeing to the ToS. But I think there is a good argument that Padmapper isn't actual using the service since they aren't getting the information from Craigslist's servers. Am I using a service, and thus bound by contract if I look at a screengrab of a website on a third party website (that contains a ToS). I've said before though that Craigslist could invent fictitious entries, and sue Padmapper for copying those creative works, just like mapmakers do with fake towns.

jahewson 14y ago
Would it work? Well, web pages are cached by ISPs all the time. The nature of the internet is that data is buffered all over the place. The argument seems to be that because the data has been at rest for a few days, the ToS no longer applies - this seems like a fairly weak argument, but who knows. As for phone books, a shrink-wrap license on a CD-ROM phone book which prohibited copying was upheld by the US courts (ProCD), so that copying was a breach of contract even though the underlying data was unprotected. > PadMapper isn't actually 'using' the service. Using is a wonderfully subjective word, and I'd expect accesing, and making use of to be acceptable synonyms. > I've said before though that Craigslist could invent fictitious entries, and sue Padmapper for copying those creative works, just like mapmakers do with fake towns. These are known as "trap streets" and US federal court has ruled that they are not protectable. Map makers are able to sue because the rest of their map is protectable; the trap streets simply catch the infringer red-handed.