4 ms·

I genuinely think immigration is a law and order issue for many voters, and this is why you see a lot of support for controls from legal immigrants. People see

I genuinely think immigration is a law and order issue for many voters, and this is why you see a lot of support for controls from legal immigrants. People see right of refusal as a prerequisite to deciding where and how much immigration is desired. By analogy, I prioritize my right over who enters my home over other considerations. I would like to let contractors and cleaners in, but only on my terms.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
The post I replied to mentioned immigration, not illegal immigration.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Illegal immigration is a subset of immigration, and the focus of 90 plus percent of immigration policy and debate.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    I disagree. Illegal immigration and immigration are two separate topics. For example, one can be completely in favor of x amount of immigration, and be completely opposed to illegal immigration. In the context of rayiner's post, the historic political cry of "immigrants bad" was not usually about illegal immigrants, it was about legal immigrants willing to work for less than people who grew up in America. There are plenty of records of anti Irish and anti Italian immigrant sentiment (or any other wave of ethnic migration that causes competition for the existing working class). I would go so far as to say that current Republicans did skillfully weave the two political causes together in modern times to gain support of both those seeking law and order and those who dislike immigrants. I think maybe that local level Democrats tarnished the national branding of Democrats by glorifying acceptance of illegal immigration, which might be popular in a select few cities or states, but not on the national stage (referring to sanctuary city policies).
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Maybe we will have to agree to disagree. >For example, one can be completely in favor of x amount of immigration, and be completely opposed to illegal immigration. This proves nothing, illegal immigration can still be a subset. I like food but dont like apples. This doesnt prove an apple isnt food. Illegal immigration has been the focus of the immigration debate in the US for at least the last 50 years. Politicians dont debate the optimal number of green cards and H1B visas on podium.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        > This proves nothing, illegal immigration can still be a subset. I like food but dont like apples. This doesnt prove an apple isnt food. This is not an analogous situation or context. It would be logically consistent to support a policy of importing food, except for apples, if you think apples are causing a problem that other foods are not. We were not discussing the existence of immigrants themselves, which yes, by definition, illegal immigrants are a subset of immigrants since they are immigrants. But that is not interesting nor useful to converse about. We were discussing the acceptance of immigrants (legal) versus the acceptance of illegal immigrants.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        >We were discussing the acceptance of immigrants (legal) versus the acceptance of illegal immigrants. Thats your take, not mine. I think the national conversation and rayiner's point is primarily about illegal immigration. If you want to talk about why a big part of the US public feels betrayed, I think illegal immigration is both relevant and useful.
EasyMark 2y ago
I'm of a similar bent. I can see expanding our -legal- immigration plans by quite a bit, especially for ag workers and other positions that Americans are largely unwilling to work for at anywhere near the current pay rates. I don't have a problem with greatly tightening down the border and "remain on the other side" while they have their asylum cases reviewed. I do take issue with dreamers and treating people who are already here like straight up criminals, especially if they are well acclimated and contributing, not causing trouble. I think the current regime is doing it with too heavy of a hand, but that ultimately the sheer scale of it will make them make better choices because of limited money and resources. We also don't need to expand the H1B visa program, it's about the right size currently. There are plenty American STEM workers to take on those roles.
smcin 2y ago
> immigration is a law and order issue for many voters Clearly they don't - where are the federal criminal indictments for companies which employ thousands of illegal immigrants? How many employers went to prison for that in 2024? 2020? In Apr 2018 - Mar 2019 (2nd/3rd year of Trump-1), only 11 were even indicted [0]. Immigration is not a law and order issue for anyone other than low-information voters esp. in coming up to an election, when one party scapegoats the statistically small subset of (illegal) immigrants, the vast majority of whom don't commit serious crimes. Sanctuary should not apply to serious criminals. (There are certainly plenty of economic reasons to oppose illegal immigration, and to call on (both sides of) Congress to regularize their situation by adding new types of visa, because everyone acknowledges the US only functions on illegal labor; also they stabilize Social Security and never withdraw from it. Anthony Bourdain and the Texas construction industry both said as much.) [0]: "How Many Employers Have Been Prosecuted for Employing Illegals?" https://hrexecutive.com/how-many-employers-have-been-prosecuted-for-employing-illegals/ https://hrexecutive.com/how-many-employers-have-been-prosecu...

lotsofpulp 2y ago

The post I replied to mentioned immigration, not illegal immigration.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
Illegal immigration is a subset of immigration, and the focus of 90 plus percent of immigration policy and debate.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  I disagree. Illegal immigration and immigration are two separate topics. For example, one can be completely in favor of x amount of immigration, and be completely opposed to illegal immigration. In the context of rayiner's post, the historic political cry of "immigrants bad" was not usually about illegal immigrants, it was about legal immigrants willing to work for less than people who grew up in America. There are plenty of records of anti Irish and anti Italian immigrant sentiment (or any other wave of ethnic migration that causes competition for the existing working class). I would go so far as to say that current Republicans did skillfully weave the two political causes together in modern times to gain support of both those seeking law and order and those who dislike immigrants. I think maybe that local level Democrats tarnished the national branding of Democrats by glorifying acceptance of illegal immigration, which might be popular in a select few cities or states, but not on the national stage (referring to sanctuary city policies).
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Maybe we will have to agree to disagree. >For example, one can be completely in favor of x amount of immigration, and be completely opposed to illegal immigration. This proves nothing, illegal immigration can still be a subset. I like food but dont like apples. This doesnt prove an apple isnt food. Illegal immigration has been the focus of the immigration debate in the US for at least the last 50 years. Politicians dont debate the optimal number of green cards and H1B visas on podium.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      > This proves nothing, illegal immigration can still be a subset. I like food but dont like apples. This doesnt prove an apple isnt food. This is not an analogous situation or context. It would be logically consistent to support a policy of importing food, except for apples, if you think apples are causing a problem that other foods are not. We were not discussing the existence of immigrants themselves, which yes, by definition, illegal immigrants are a subset of immigrants since they are immigrants. But that is not interesting nor useful to converse about. We were discussing the acceptance of immigrants (legal) versus the acceptance of illegal immigrants.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        >We were discussing the acceptance of immigrants (legal) versus the acceptance of illegal immigrants. Thats your take, not mine. I think the national conversation and rayiner's point is primarily about illegal immigration. If you want to talk about why a big part of the US public feels betrayed, I think illegal immigration is both relevant and useful.

EasyMark 2y ago

I'm of a similar bent. I can see expanding our -legal- immigration plans by quite a bit, especially for ag workers and other positions that Americans are largely unwilling to work for at anywhere near the current pay rates. I don't have a problem with greatly tightening down the border and "remain on the other side" while they have their asylum cases reviewed. I do take issue with dreamers and treating people who are already here like straight up criminals, especially if they are well acclimated and contributing, not causing trouble. I think the current regime is doing it with too heavy of a hand, but that ultimately the sheer scale of it will make them make better choices because of limited money and resources. We also don't need to expand the H1B visa program, it's about the right size currently. There are plenty American STEM workers to take on those roles.

smcin 2y ago

> immigration is a law and order issue for many voters Clearly they don't - where are the federal criminal indictments for companies which employ thousands of illegal immigrants? How many employers went to prison for that in 2024? 2020? In Apr 2018 - Mar 2019 (2nd/3rd year of Trump-1), only 11 were even indicted [0]. Immigration is not a law and order issue for anyone other than low-information voters esp. in coming up to an election, when one party scapegoats the statistically small subset of (illegal) immigrants, the vast majority of whom don't commit serious crimes. Sanctuary should not apply to serious criminals. (There are certainly plenty of economic reasons to oppose illegal immigration, and to call on (both sides of) Congress to regularize their situation by adding new types of visa, because everyone acknowledges the US only functions on illegal labor; also they stabilize Social Security and never withdraw from it. Anthony Bourdain and the Texas construction industry both said as much.) [0]: "How Many Employers Have Been Prosecuted for Employing Illegals?" https://hrexecutive.com/how-many-employers-have-been-prosecuted-for-employing-illegals/ https://hrexecutive.com/how-many-employers-have-been-prosecu...