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I agree on most of that. A few comments: > Pick a social issue fifty years ago, take most institutional church’s positions, and they’re pretty consistently wro

I agree on most of that. A few comments: > Pick a social issue fifty years ago, take most institutional church’s positions, and they’re pretty consistently wrong. (There are notable exceptions, of course.) According to what definition of wrong? What is decided by popular vote? Although democracy in America has a Christian foundation (congregational churches), Christians pretty much defer right/wrong to the biblical tradition where a materialistic society has strayed from the teachings of Jesus. Whereas secular society has run away from home and suggests right/wrong is somehow simultaneously subjective and determined by popular culture. I don't stake a claim either way, but it's important to note that many Christians would make this argument. I would make the claim that many individual Christians over the past fifty years have made amazing life choices precisely because of their faith. > Maybe we need a new prophet for the modern world. One who tells of the Kingdom of Heaven having been voluntarily relinquished for a Republic. Well, I assume you know what Christians would say to this one... It's a lot of pain before it gets good.

Eisenstein 2y ago
I suppose one could say 'wrong' would absolutely be something they changed their position on, regardless of any other definition.
- cynicalpeace 2y ago
  The strictly Christian response would be "wrong" is what goes against the words of Christ, and they could have flipped from "right" in the past to "wrong" now, or vice versa, or even from "wrong" to "wronger".
  - Eisenstein 2y ago
    I don't think that is the Catholic response. Also, the words of Christ are only known as was given by third party recollections, and sometimes contradict themselves.
    - cynicalpeace 2y ago
      True on both fronts
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> According to what definition of wrong? What is decided by popular vote? According to what most people would consider wrong today. Supporting Mussolini. Interracial marriage. The right for gay people to exist. (This is partly due to religion and the right having been allies in our modern history. So whenever there is a cultural clash where churches must take a position, it's usually with the conservative right. And the last century has been one where, on social issues, the conservative right has been wrong more than correct.) > you know what Christians would say to this one... It's a lot of pain before it gets good There is a lot of pain being caused by Christian institutions today. It’s why religiosity, particularly Christianity in America, is on a multigenerational slide [1]. (It could reverse. Young men, particularly on the far right, appear to be reversing course. And Christianity has thrived for millenia because it's particularly adaptable.) We can learn from holy books and practice a faith without giving its institutions in the mortal realm power. Or at least, not putting them above reproach. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-reli...

Eisenstein 2y ago

I suppose one could say 'wrong' would absolutely be something they changed their position on, regardless of any other definition.

cynicalpeace 2y ago
The strictly Christian response would be "wrong" is what goes against the words of Christ, and they could have flipped from "right" in the past to "wrong" now, or vice versa, or even from "wrong" to "wronger".
- Eisenstein 2y ago
  I don't think that is the Catholic response. Also, the words of Christ are only known as was given by third party recollections, and sometimes contradict themselves.
  - cynicalpeace 2y ago
    True on both fronts

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> According to what definition of wrong? What is decided by popular vote? According to what most people would consider wrong today. Supporting Mussolini. Interracial marriage. The right for gay people to exist. (This is partly due to religion and the right having been allies in our modern history. So whenever there is a cultural clash where churches must take a position, it's usually with the conservative right. And the last century has been one where, on social issues, the conservative right has been wrong more than correct.) > you know what Christians would say to this one... It's a lot of pain before it gets good There is a lot of pain being caused by Christian institutions today. It’s why religiosity, particularly Christianity in America, is on a multigenerational slide [1]. (It could reverse. Young men, particularly on the far right, appear to be reversing course. And Christianity has thrived for millenia because it's particularly adaptable.) We can learn from holy books and practice a faith without giving its institutions in the mortal realm power. Or at least, not putting them above reproach. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-reli...